List of flawed ships

[Sigoroth]

On the topic of the Mars, I would imagine that the cost of its Improved Tracking System should be reduced to 10 pts.

Comparing a Mars + ITS + Extra Turret (285 pts) to a Dominion with NC (not an option, but assume +20 pts for a total of 275 pts) we have a difference of 10 pts in cost and the left shifted WBs vs the lances. At >30cm range this will typically still favour the lances and even when <30cm it will generally still favour the lances because of the ceiling effect (you can't shift further left than the defences column) and also because the Mars is unlikely to LO, which typically favours WBs when all else is equal (ie, 3d6 hitting on 5+ = 2d6 hitting on 4+ normally, but is greater when on LO).

Dropping the cost of this upgrade down to 10 pts makes it only 5 pts more expensive than a NC Dominion would be, and this should more than adequately cover any beardiness of the rule. In fact, it probably isn't even worth 10 pts on the Mars.

For convergent evidence we can look at the Overlord. The Overlord with the ITS is, I think, widely held to be balanced. The Mars has only 75% of the upgradeable direct fire weaponry of the Overlord. 75% of 15 pts would be 11.25 pts. However, the weaponry is also only 75% of the range, which would be 8.44 pts. Perhaps this last should not be weighed so highly, since most of game is spent sub-30cm, but if the Mars had longer range WBs it would spend a greater proportion of the game at longer range (approaching obliquely) and the Overlord also tends to hang back similar to a Carnage, extending the usefulness of its range. Add to this the fact that the Mars is far more likely to be reloading rather than locking on and the comparative value of the left-shift goes down even further (nearer 5 pts than 10 pts).

So I really think that 10 pts is sufficient cost for the ITS on the Mars.

[Plaxor]

Is it 15?

I don't want to make any upgrade a no-brainer. It's better to have something on the side of less-than worthwhile then always take forever.

[Plaxor]

I re-read the Hellbringer in BFK, and compared its stats to other vessels.

So here is what it should look like:

Hellbringer Light Cruiser      120 pts

Type/Hits   Speed/Turns     Shields/Armour   Turrets
Cruiser/6        30/90                    1/5+              1

Port + Stb launch bays   1

Prow Lances 1 45cm F
Dorsal Wbs 4  30cm l/f/r

Scores 2 AP for every turn it spends landing troops.



Also... it has a dorsal weapon?

[Bryantroy2003]

It isnt really a dorsal weapon more like the emplacements on each side are too weak individually to affect much individually and thus swivel together to combine into a useful volley. This is reflected by a dorsal profile but you could put in a rule that it is taken down by either a pt/st weapon hit instead if you feel like it. Thats how I see it being rationalized.

As for fleets performing specific roles, they are expected to perform any role their master requires at a moments notice with what ever ramshackle affair they can get together. If they are to escort a 20 ship convoy and the only thing on hand is 6 LC's and 2 BB's then guess what, those ships are going to escort those unglamorus transports to where ever they are bound and the admiralty will cover down on the lost protection they bring with what ever they can. Its not a perfect system but what in 40k is?

In order to understand the way the Imperial Navy at the least works, I highly recomend picking up the Rogue Trader book, BattleFleet Koronus. Its not as comprehensive in some area's as i'd like but thats because it leaves room for GM ruling to fill in the space. Even if you dont want to play the RPG this would be an invaluable fluff imo. And it would show you that there are now infact official Choas LC's and an LCV as well. It gives the profiles for several new cruiser hulls for the IN including a flawed BC that has the potential to burn its self up in just a few rounds due to any crit. But thats my blurb on it.

I dont think the Styx needs to be adjusted any more. For its points it is a bargain in the BC slot. Id still prefer a Hades but thats because im not very good with AC.

[horizon]

And it would show you that there are now infact official Choas LC's and an LCV as well.

As said, I have the original background on the Pestilaan (wip manuscript) and it would explain ... a ... lot....

[RCgothic]

I re-read the Hellbringer in BFK, and compared its stats to other vessels.

So here is what it should look like:

Hellbringer Light Cruiser      120 pts

Type/Hits   Speed/Turns     Shields/Armour   Turrets
Cruiser/6        30/90                    1/5+              1

Port + Stb launch bays   1

Prow Lances 1 45cm F
Dorsal Wbs 4  30cm l/f/r

Scores 2 AP for every turn it spends landing troops.

Defiant beats this ship hands down in all but speed, and surely that's saying something. In fact, Defiant is a good deal more manoeuvrable due to a lower minimum move.

[Bryantroy2003]

Allow it to make 2 turns that equal 90* maybe? Or include a rule that allows it to turn prior to the mandatory minimum to turn. Such as instead of moving 15cm it can move 10cm prior to turning?

This would allow it to skirt debris and natural terrain more precisely then its contemperary's without giving it a huge manouverability advantage either. I wouldnt be opposed to the WB's being increased to 5 for the listed profile.

[horizon]

Eh. No.

Hellbringer is only fun in small convoy raids. Has no place in a fleet engagement.

[RCgothic]

I would be happy for the Hellbringer to have 4AC with 2L@45cm front.

It's still only half to 2/3 a cruiser armament on the broadsides, 2/3 cruiser range on the prow, and for 80% of a cruiser's price.

[horizon]

At 120pts? 4AC?
Insanity! Heresy!

That is 8AC at 240pts.

16AC for 480pts.
Add a bigger carrier eg Styx -> 22AC @ 740pts.

Go friggin fish.

[RCgothic]

Of course not for 120pts. For 150pts as proposed earlier.

[horizon]

So my "list" would show up at:
860pts for 22 AC.

Still hardcore ordnance spam.



Tau could do:
3x Explorer. 1x Hero. 870pts = 28AC
which is also hardcore spam

[RCgothic]

Yes, but it would be almost completely devoid of any actual weapons, composed entirely of easily suppressible light cruisers.

Any half decent gunfleet would obliterate that list.

[Phthisis]

@Plaxor
On the Hellbringer, is that one launch bay total or 2 launch bays?  2 bays is reasonable for its points but a 2nd turret is in order, I think.

I do ike the 150pt version.  I don't see much benefit in spamming them over spamming Devestations, which is possible already.  But if people are afraid of it, then a limit isnt an issue.  In fact, it can keep people from making a big mistake in fleet design.

@Horizon
4 Dictators is 840 and has 16AC and 4 torpedo salvoes.  Thats 20 ordnance markers vs 22 for Chaos.

7 Defiants are 840 and has 14AC and 7 torpedo salvos.  Thats 21 ordnance markers.

Your point about capability to spam ordnance is that it should only be something the IN can do?

[horizon]

Yes, and 4 Devestations = 16AC with 16 lances at 760pts (vs Dictators that is 80pts less = 2 Infidels = 4 torps = 2 markers).