List of flawed ships

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Big as a 747?  The Furies and Starhawks were replacements for Thunderbolts and Marauders, which arent nearly that big.  I bet the Fury is about the size of an SR71.  Plus we know Thunderbolts and Marauders don't need a techpriest to maintain from fluff.

Don't tell me that. Tell Andy Chambers, one of the original designers of the game who said the AC were as big as 747s.

Some of the batteries are that simple, but not all.  Even in the simple ones, the macro cannons.  Those rounds are bigger than a school bus!  Where the heck are they getting them from?  Must cost a pretty penny for all that metal and bang.

I rather doubt they are getting them anywhere. A Macrocannon would require the services of a Tech Priest to install. Again, reminding you BFG ships are kilometers long.

They'd probably get good $ for the old batteries.  Fighters, ordnance and fuel would be a lot cheaper than the super-tech in the batteries.  Plus theyre easier to steal.   Haul back a captured freighter to a pirate dock to refit a couple of batteries (hopefully theyre the same make and in good shape!) or transfer cargo and fuel and set the hull adrift? You can capture fighters, bombers, fual and ammunition in transports. You want new plasma batteries you have to get them built and maintained by the tech-priests.   Pirates life a hard life.  Everything is a cost/benefit analysis and they have few friends.

Fighters, ordnance and fuel would cost the pirate a pretty penny in the long run. They are in there for profit. Having to purchase AC, their ordnance and fuel just eats into the bottom line. Your scenarios are basically one in a thousand chances of happening. Yes, pirates do take this into account. Right.

As for Devastation cost, its been so low for the longest time that people do not want it increased. They'd rather nerf the lances range but its not enough really. It should be in the 200 point levels.  I would have kept the range and just upped the cost to 210.

As for the AC LC, I still say get rid of it and clear out a huge chunk of the problem in one go.

[RCgothic]

No. Removing the CVLs invalidates people's models, and they aren't even a problem anyway. I think what we've got so far is good. It isn't broken, it doesn't need fixing.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

It's not like there's a lot of Defiants or Enforcers out there and even if there are it's not as if the bays can't be replaced with WB or lance bits (hey, not like these are rare commodities).

But if that's what you want to go about it, hey Pthisis, ask for more torp ships for Chaos, similar to the Dictator but cheaper. And while everyone's at it, do the same for Eldar both flavors, SM, Necron, Nids and Orks. That way, every fleet is generic. That's where everything will lead to anyway later if not sooner.

I really can't figure why IN has to have an AC LC. It's not like they need it. And I play IN. I like that FLAVOR and CHARACTER that they have issues fielding AC and rely on guns and torps.

[RCgothic]

I have 4 Defiants.

[Bryantroy2003]

Then you have the option to not use them. Dont force others to conform to your distate of that single type of ship. I am going to convert a pair of my Dauntless's over to be enforcers just because I want to see how they perform as opposed to taking a single dictator a few times. And they look bloody awsome. If you dont like it, dont buy it. Its that simple.

[afterimagedan]

Admiral does make a point.

[Phthisis]

@Admiral

Could you provide the source where Andy Chambers says theyre all big as 747s?  In the main rulebook it says theyre relatively small and have a wide range of sizes.  Also we know the older versions were not that big: thunderbolts & marauders. 

Even if they are unnecessarily large, I still think its cheaper and more feasable for pirates to maintain a few squadrons of bombers than a battery of macro cannons.

Admiral, youre not being fair to me.  I'm not asking for torpedos or to make the IN & Chaos fleets generic.  In fact, I'm doing the opposite.  Im asking for more access to AC to restore the balamce of Chaos AC to IN torpedos (a balance which already favors IN anyway).

I like the inclusion of light cruisers.  It makes smaller point games easier and more interesting without having to use the Privateer rules.  It just needs to be done with balance, which is something I think GW failed to do when they released them. 

[Bryantroy2003]

If nothing else allow captured IN LC's to be useable within the Choas fleet with say, a CSM crew or Warlord on board? Representing the high amount of resources it took to take it from the Emperors Holy Navy. But I do like his idea for a Attack LCV It does have benefits in smaller games and as a second wave in fleet actions. The 1000-1750 range it will strugle in but I am sure a canny player could find uses for it.

But as has been said, make sure to take 2 it costs more then to take 1 dev, or you risk ubalancing the current system.

[RCgothic]

2 would need to cost significantly more than 1 dev.

But I think the proposed 150pts for 2L@45cm and 4 bays is a fair price. You can get more AC than when taking a dev, but you lose so much firepower in comparison, as well as a defensive profile 2 hits and a shield.

If necessary, a 'This ship is rare, so only 1 may be taken per 500pts' limitation would prevent spam.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I have 4 Defiants.

Which I am quite sure you can easily change.

Then you have the option to not use them. Dont force others to conform to your distate of that single type of ship. I am going to convert a pair of my Dauntless's over to be enforcers just because I want to see how they perform as opposed to taking a single dictator a few times. And they look bloody awsome. If you dont like it, dont buy it. Its that simple.

I don't use them and never will. But you miss the point. It's not just because I don't want to use them. It's the idea of letting IN get cheap AC.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

@Admiral

Could you provide the source where Andy Chambers says theyre all big as 747s?  In the main rulebook it says theyre relatively small and have a wide range of sizes.  Also we know the older versions were not that big: thunderbolts & marauders.  

Even if they are unnecessarily large, I still think its cheaper and more feasable for pirates to maintain a few squadrons of bombers than a battery of macro cannons.

It was in one of the old BFG mags if I am not mistaken. Maybe Horizon can help me out. But they were big according to Andy Chambers because BFG scale was big. And because of this, they are not feasible for a pirates to maintain. Anything larger than an escort means they need lots of manpower. Remember a cruiser originally was posited to have 8,000 crew. Now that has increased and a carrier should actually have a larger compliment compared to a gunship and they should know how to fly these things to as well as have a crew that can operate the other sections of the fighter.

Admiral, youre not being fair to me.  I'm not asking for torpedos or to make the IN & Chaos fleets generic.  In fact, I'm doing the opposite.  Im asking for more access to AC to restore the balamce of Chaos AC to IN torpedos (a balance which already favors IN anyway).

Actually, it was more at a snipe to the current situation rather than me being unfair to you. Had no intention of being unfair to you. But really, think about it. IN has been getting access to cheap AC. So why not aside from more options for AC, that Chaos also get access to cheap torps? Same with the other races.

I like the inclusion of light cruisers.  It makes smaller point games easier and more interesting without having to use the Privateer rules.  It just needs to be done with balance, which is something I think GW failed to do when they released them.  

I don't. Chaos already has a better ship than any LC could be and it just means the LC should at least be equal to the task of the Slaughter which from the looks of it is now coming out to be true. 4 AC on one LC chassis. Oooooooh-kay.

So I can see people in the future clamoring for the Nemesis and Jovian to become official and they might just be made official. Jovian tried to be snuck in, albeit in a most limited matter but it has. So next phase would be more accessibility. Nemesis should be up for bat next time. Then Chaos players will ask for something similar in design like the Nemesis. As will the other factions. It's a most logical direction to go in an evolutionary sense. But it will in effect make every faction generic. And then to supposedly limit the access, "1 in X number of points" clauses will be thrown this way and that or "it will only be available in this fleet list".

I much prefer the original characteristics and flavor. I also prefer a ship design to be AVAILABLE TO ALL the lists in the faction. That's the true mark of a truly good design and it will just have the simple clause of: "This ship can be included in all the fleet lists of X faction".

[Bryantroy2003]

And your disagreement with the LCV is the same disagreement I have with the Necron auto brace. I dont like it there for they shouldnt have it. The IN still pays a premium for their AC regardless of the platform it is deliverd on. And if you are taking the small guys you are concentrating on gunboats as has been pointed out almost a dozen times already. No one, and I do mean No One is going to spam LCV's and hope to win. If they were they would take nothing but Dictator's instead because they are far more survivable and flexible. The LCV is a points trap if you dont come with a very good plan on how to use and protect it from the get go.

It is not an undercut to the flavor of the fleet. And it never will be. It is nothing but another play in a giant playbook. Should Choas get some kind of access to torps? They have it in their BB's their GC Repulsive and their Escorts. If they want it they have 4 avenues from which to approach it. And their hulk as well. So its not a lack of options that you can complain about, they have lots. Including several Character ships. Throw on top of it that they get boarding Torps for free while the IN dont have access to it at all.

And I do not want the Dev's points to increase. They are fine where they are. If Choas gets a cheap cruiser so what, they still have the slaughter to beat me over the brow with for far cheaper. And that is pointed correctly imo as well, ive had many wins and losses against a wide varriety of Choas fleets and other IN as well. Choas still rules the AC department, and IN dominates with Torps. Although I do remember one fight where the IN player took a NC spam list which missed alot and the Choas player had a Desolator and Replusive shotgun Torping the poor Rookie's Mars point blank, after the Cap had been cleared by a Dev's wings.

But as I said in my first sentance ill say again, just because you dont like something doesnt mean it must change. There is no undercut to the flavor of any of the lists/fleets/races/sectors/whatever by the IN having LCV's. Hell they have had access to escort carrier's for a long time now and im sure you wont argue that those break their flavor. And while I only own 6 of them I love using them mixed in with other escorts to sacrifice first so I can keep cranking out CAP and letting those Big Guns, affordable because I didnt have to purchase full cruisers, do their jobs.

[Plaxor]

Admiral D,

I do think that you are right about the Hellbringer, and it will look somewhat different. It will likely be a CL psuedo-full-cruiser similar to the Merchant for tau.

I will shoot for a cost of 180 pts.

[Taggerung]

180? So at this point just a retooled Dev? I liked the other version better personally.

[Plaxor]

I like it too, but I don't like controversy, and honestly that profile was too expensive for what it does. However it was better than any technology the IN has.

I think I could see it as an actual stripped-down full cruiser. As the pirates didn't have enough parts to replace the weapons, or simply wanted more engine power.