List of flawed ships

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Admiral, explain your issue with IN CL carriers more in-depth. I still do not understand your reasoning as why they are problematic. IN does not get AC for cheaper overall (220 pts to 210), and in the Wardens/Tartanus fleet is the only place where Enforcers are available, and are the only carrier option other than Tempests (escort carriers) and Excorcists. Well plus the variant Vanquisher.

My problem with them is they give IN cheap access to AC even though the ship is crap. That's the fact even if you limit it to Tartanus or Tempest or whatever because you can only bring one list to play anyway. IN was never an AC fleet. They had access to them but they were very expensive.

Allowing the carrier LC hurts the Chaos faction since they are supposed to be the AC heavy faction. Since the Defiants and Enforcers are allowed, Chaos players now feel their territory is being tread upon so that a carrier LC is now being given to them at a very affordable cost allowing them to get a GC or BB in easier.

Those are my main problems with allowing IN access to a carrier LC. Since it is crap anyway, might as well get rid of it. Really, their existence are causing more problems. Then make the Hellbringer the full sized carrier it's supposed to be.

[Sigoroth]

yes, but you're forgetting a key advantage here.

Say that the player was intending to hurt the lunar anyways. This would mean that if the lunar were not squadroned only 6's would have an effect on the ship. Which now that it is squadroned your 5's are now worth something and causes potential damage to another ship.

Actually, this is simply a win for the Lunar. If the opponent wanted to damage the CG then it is very hard to do so, as RCG pointed out. It basically gets 6+ armour and invulnerability to lances. If the opponent wanted to damage the Lunar however there is still advantage for the Lunar. You note that 5's will get "bonus" hits to CG. Well, you'd need at least 4 "bonus" hits for it to even count, so this is not a bonus at all. In fact, the most it will do usually is just allow for an opportunity to prematurely detonate any ordnance thrown towards the CG. On the other hand, since those 5's count as having already hit then they won't get re-rolled on LO, meaning that there will be less dice coming at the Lunar.

Squadroning has it's play for survivability, and 'closest ship' is the important part of it. But honestly the scenario you're giving is worse than squadroning 3 cruisers together.  this would happen;

I disagree with this aspect of squadrons. It makes sense for escorts, but not for capital ships, particularly cap ships of different sizes.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

@Admiral & Plaxor

If we were talking modern day, you'd be right about the AC vs gunnery.  But this is the dark future where everything is bigger and technology is about superstition and forgotten lore.

Batteries on ships are macro-cannons, massive volcano cannons and giant lasers.  Running each one of these is like operating a partical accelerator or a tokamak. Its like what they put on titans, only bigger.  Which forgeworld is providing the ammunition, refit materials and technical expertise to keep them running?

They're bigger sure but they're mostly still mechanical. Nothing complex about them. They even use conscripts to swing the things. Compared to AC they're quite simple.

AC are actually the low-tech option.  The fluff has army mechanics maintaining their aircraft, not techpriests,and the ammunition they use is the same stuff they issue to the IG & PDF.  Theyre cheap, easy to maintain and arm and made on every civilized or better planet in the Imperium.  Heck, they could probably build them at a large enough pirate base.

They are not. The AC are at least 747 sized and those are just the fighters. Their targeting systems are not something mechanics can just maintain, especially the ones used for space combat where you have to find the target first and you have to guide the missiles in from distances of thousands of kilometers. Do no underestimate the complexities involved in space fighters and bombers.

When the batteries break down, you gut the gun-bays, sell off the components and make launch bays.

And how much to buy the fighters, ordnance and fuel to fill that bay?

@Admiral

The Styx has 2 more bays, makes the WBs 60cm, trades in 4 lances for 2 FLR and makes them 60cm.  70pts?  Really?

Compare the Dictator to the Mars.. A Nova Cannon, 2 completely new 60cm FLR lances and 12WBs upgraded by 15cm, all for 50pts.

You can't compare IN ships to Chaos ships. They each have their own quirks. The Styx was more expensive before but it was much too expensive. 260 points is just about right. Again if you feel the discrepancy is a problem, blame that on the Devastation which was, and still is in my opinion, too cheap.

By eliminating light carriers and chaos light cruisers, youre advocating burning the whole tartanus sector project and starting over.

If its broke, fix it. If you have to start over, then do so.

[Taggerung]

Well...Comparing the Mars to the Dictator the upgrades run about 60 points, and since the Dictator is kind of over cost anyways, that seems about right. I don't really like the Mars but I just found out that Berek Thunderfist's (The Wolf Lord Ragnar Blackmane succeeds) personal cruiser is a Mars class...so looks like I have to make one up now.

Why couldn't he have been an Overlord...now that's a good ship!

[Plaxor]

Well...Comparing the Mars to the Dictator the upgrades run about 60 points, and since the Dictator is kind of over cost anyways, that seems about right. I don't really like the Mars but I just found out that Berek Thunderfist's (The Wolf Lord Ragnar Blackmane succeeds) personal cruiser is a Mars class...so looks like I have to make one up now.

Why couldn't he have been an Overlord...now that's a good ship!

And the Space Wolves also have an Emperor too!

By eliminating light carriers and chaos light cruisers, youre advocating burning the whole tartanus sector project and starting over.

nooo!! KHAN!!!

@Horizon
Youre right, light cruisers are not old.  But you say that any IN fleet can go renegade.  What if all the renegade light cruisers were relatively new?  Pirates would love them and theyre easier to capture/mutiny on than a full size cruiser.  Can we just change some of the fluff, or are we stuck because of that RPG?

Something intriguing to note. Chaos cruisers are usually older than IN ones. However chaos' escorts are actually newer than the sword and it's variants.

It is perfectly reasonable to assume that a CL could suffer the same fate.

Actually, this is simply a win for the Lunar. If the opponent wanted to damage the CG then it is very hard to do so, as RCG pointed out. It basically gets 6+ armour and invulnerability to lances. If the opponent wanted to damage the Lunar however there is still advantage for the Lunar. You note that 5's will get "bonus" hits to CG. Well, you'd need at least 4 "bonus" hits for it to even count, so this is not a bonus at all. In fact, the most it will do usually is just allow for an opportunity to prematurely detonate any ordnance thrown towards the CG. On the other hand, since those 5's count as having already hit then they won't get re-rolled on LO, meaning that there will be less dice coming at the Lunar.

Small advantage for the ordnance. There are quite a few advantages and disadvantages to the scenario. Sadly though, I'm afraid you're right. I added in the multi-cap ship squadron rules to appease RC who really likes the idea. I didn't think it would cause any issues.




Admiral,

I think I understand your plight, but you would need 2 enforcers to equal 1 dictator, which is more expensive for the same amount of ac.

Certainly an issue. However Tartanus is meant to be a more ac-heavy IN fleet. To counterbalance this they lose 2 torpedoes on their standard cruiser designs. As well as access to larger carriers.

Armageddon has access to the Defiant, although in limited number (1 per 500 in this) so the issue here is somewhat lessened.

I understand that there is demand for a counterbalance, but I did make the Maelstrom fleet a bit problematic when it comes to AC.

[Phthisis]

Big as a 747?  The Furies and Starhawks were replacements for Thunderbolts and Marauders, which arent nearly that big.  I bet the Fury is about the size of an SR71.  Plus we know Thunderbolts and Marauders don't need a techpriest to maintain from fluff.

Some of the batteries are that simple, but not all.  Even in the simple ones, the macro cannons.  Those rounds are bigger than a school bus!  Where the heck are they getting them from?  Must cost a pretty penny for all that metal and bang.

They'd probably get good $ for the old batteries.  Fighters, ordnance and fuel would be a lot cheaper than the super-tech in the batteries.  Plus theyre easier to steal.   Haul back a captured freighter to a pirate dock to refit a couple of batteries (hopefully theyre the same make and in good shape!) or transfer cargo and fuel and set the hull adrift? You can capture fighters, bombers, fual and ammunition in transports. You want new plasma batteries you have to get them built and maintained by the tech-priests.   Pirates life a hard life.  Everything is a cost/benefit analysis and they have few friends.

Im not suggesting anything about the Devestation other than that it would make a very inferior attack carrier, unlike all the other cruiser sized carriers in the game.  
But I am pointing out that its easy to argue a points value as anything you want if you compare it to the right ship.  Id rather figure out what it can do vs other ships of the same type.  

If the Devestation is still so cheap, raise the price already! This is a project to give balance to the lists, right?  Why does everyone agree its too cheap but still leave it?  I am the only one who doesn't think its awesome and I seriously doubt my opinion is stopping you because you all decided on this before I was on this forum.  For what the Styx costs, make it 220 or 230 since theyre about the same bloody profile.
Same thing goes for the armored prows.  If they are so overcosted, then deduct 10pts off every ship with an armored prow.

Or not, since the Devestation is merely ok and armored prows make the IN fleet.  

And to note, the light cruisers are only in one list.  Black Crusade is untouched.
Im still on board for that 6 bay standard cruiser for the BC list.

@Tag
Go wolves!

@Plaxor
I dont want to burn the Tartanus list.  Actually I just ordered some new cruisers and a strike cruser to build a Tartanus fleet.  We need to get this figured out before I saw my chaos cruisers in half.  I can't afford to waste $40 on unusable ships.

[horizon]

Regarding Eldar,

I have seen quite a few complaints about the absence of the supernova et al. I will add them in. The only changes I intend for eldar are the holofield changes to lances (4/5/6 depending on range) and a RS for wbs. I'll see if I can email you an advance copy when I review them.

All stats/costs will be as in 1.9. The only changes will be regarding holofields.

I can live with that. So a slight improvement vs batteries under 15cm and a decrease vs lances under 15cm.
These are changes I considered myself (the lances) and only did not do them because of some concerns of the '4+ iron lance rule".


Styx,
I played the Styx at 290 with success. I played the Styx at 275 with success. At 260 it will still be a success, plus I can add an Iconoclast compared to the 290 version.

Styx is an unique vessel and well worth its points.

[afterimagedan]

Yes!!! Supernova! I will have to post some pics of mine. I'm proud of it. Gothicomp probably.

[horizon]

Cool.

Oh, and bombers are 747, was in the rulebook iirc.

[Plaxor]

I can live with that. So a slight improvement vs batteries under 15cm and a decrease vs lances under 15cm.
These are changes I considered myself (the lances) and only did not do them because of some concerns of the '4+ iron lance rule".

Which is good that we're agreed in that respect. The RS is just easier than explaining some save mechanic....

I was wondering if you could give me some examples of converted eldar ships for your MMS vessels?

[RCgothic]

On LCVs:

I utterly disagree that they're a problem. They don't spam better than full size carriers, and their ordnance is defensive unless paired with another carrier, in which case you weren't going ordnance light anyway. What they do allow is to provide a token CAP for a cheaper amount, thus allowing purer gunship lists to be taken. This doesn't edge in on chaos's turf in any way, shape or form.

On Cap ship squadrons:

Come on guys, this is a good idea to allow them. The restrictions are completely arbitrary, and it totally makes fluff sense for a larger capital ship to be in a squadron with its escorting cruisers. The rewritten rules that will appear in the next update (if they haven't already been killed) are good - this problem is avenger specific. The 5+ prow battleships are too slow and/or not enough of a gunship to matter for this trick to matter, the Vengeance and Exorcist are priced high enough to compensate, and the 5+ prow LCs really need the protection when in a squadron. Escorts are already somewhat protected by their aspect, and other fleets don't have the same 5+/6+ prow issue. If necessary we can make it so that the largest ship within a squadron can always be picked out. Don't abandon the changes over one ship's interaction with them.

[Sigoroth]

On Cap ship squadrons:

Come on guys, this is a good idea to allow them. The restrictions are completely arbitrary, and it totally makes fluff sense for a larger capital ship to be in a squadron with its escorting cruisers. The rewritten rules that will appear in the next update (if they haven't already been killed) are good - this problem is avenger specific. The 5+ prow battleships are too slow and/or not enough of a gunship to matter for this trick to matter, the Vengeance and Exorcist are priced high enough to compensate, and the 5+ prow LCs really need the protection when in a squadron. Escorts are already somewhat protected by their aspect, and other fleets don't have the same 5+/6+ prow issue. If necessary we can make it so that the largest ship within a squadron can always be picked out. Don't abandon the changes over one ship's interaction with them.

To be honest I don't think that it does make sense for different sized ships to be in squadron, at least as far as the game is concerned. What is the difference between being in "squadron" and simply flying in formation? There are a number of slight differences as far as the game is concerned, but two major differences. Protection and special orders. Both of these are terrible. A ship should not be protected simply by being in squadron. A ship should not be forced to brace because another, nearby, ship is being shot at.

[Taggerung]

@Phthisis

Shit, I forgot to tell you, I just won a boxed set on Ebay for like 70 bucks, so I have 4 chaos cruisers I won't really be using...Any interest in at least 2 of them? I can use the others to make wreck markers for ships, but 4 is pushing it.

@Plaxor

Yea the wolves fleet seems to be made up of around 50% Imperial Navy Vessels, and they actually only reference a Battle Barge once in all 6 of the books, and really? They have an Emperor class too? I know the "Pride of Fenris" which is Logan Grimnar's flag ship is a Retribution class battleship which is perfect since that's the center piece to my fleet.

Also...Just got to the part in the book again...forgot the "Fist of Russ" was destroyed, so I have no idea what Ragnar uses as his flag ship...I suppose I could make it anything now. I do know they have 1 Battle Barge of standard design however. Need to work that into my fleet somehow.

[RCgothic]

No ship will be forced to brace if another does in the proposed rules, because capital ships can go on special orders individually.

The benefits:
Combining firepower
Hit allocation
One Command Check to rule them all (if no other SOs in effect within the squadron, and only if desired.)

The drawbacks:
Formation must be maintained. (the penalties for this now apply to the whole squadron rather than just out of formation ships - it was difficult to tell which ships were the out of formation ones in some situations).
Hits carry over onto next ship.

If capital ships being able to be picked out within a squadron is something people want, then that's a relatively easy change to make. Just decide what sort of squadron you want:

#1. Any capital ship can be picked out.
#2. Largest capital ship can be picked out.
#3. Only closest ship can be picked out.

Any of these are easy, but I really do want to hang on to mixed squadrons. It makes no sense whatsoever that a cruiser can't operate in concert with a battleship.

[RCgothic]

The latest incarnation of the rules will be up very shortly. Can we let them get posted so we have something solid to discuss?