List of flawed ships

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Stuff...

I don't like the Armageddon and Defiant example, Why not try it out using a Lunar and a Strike Cruiser with the added shield. Should be a much better comparison. The Defiant as everyone agrees is basically a bad ship.

Or how about a Retribution vs 3 Dauntless'? Another good matchup to see.

[Plaxor]

All right, so Relictor should be 60 points cheaper?

Also, was thinking more about Pthisis' dilemma, of not having a solid assault carrier in Chaos, and not being able to adequately fill the CL/Escort slot in Maelstrom fleet.

Incidentally I proposed implementing the Hellbringer. Which would work well in RT fleets as well (who have a hard time finding carriers.)

So here is a proposed profile, I know you won't like a certain aspect about it, but it fits better in chaos than in an imperial fleet.

Hellbringer Light Cruiser       150 pts

Type/Hits    Speed/Turns    Shields/Turrets
Cruiser/6          25/90                  1/2

Port Launch Bays: 2
Stbd Launch Bays: 2
Prow Lances: 2 30cm F

Special Rules: Improved Thrusters, The Hellbringer was designed specifically as a planetary assault vessel and therefore scores two assault points for every turn it spends landing troops in a planetary assault mission.

[Phthisis]

@Admiral

Its easy to say it was bad positioning because it didn't work.  Hindsight and all.  Truth be told, some of it was.  I should have moved my Devestation that was rammed differently.  At the time, it didn't look likely to happen that way.  The blast marker on one made the Ld check less likely to pass and deducted 5cm from the move.  I could have even survived the ramming had my Ld 9 brace test passed.  But he rolled high enough to just barely reach me despite the obstacles in his way and the dice were against me from then on.  
On the otherhand my overall strategy had worked.  The Dictators and Retribution were seperated from the Murder/Hades vs Lunar fight which I won hands down.  My Desolator relocated successfully.  If the game had continued, I was about to AAF my MMMH to the far side of the board where there was a planet.  Taking advantage ov the gravity well I was going to flip them around 180 and come back at them with LO lances blazing.  That was the point of the bait.  I wanted to fight half of his fleet at first and then flip around and fight the rest.
Let whoever hasn't lost a ship to bad positioning and bad luck cast the first stone.

@Plaxor
Hey, that ships not bad.  Any chance on renaming it the Vicious? Not what I thought was going to be proposed at all.  Makes Tartanus playable for Chaos and simultaneously addresses Chaos' issue with lack of ordnance while filling an attack carrier role.  Its like a little Chaos Marine strike cruiser.  Tartanus will be my representation of a Traitor Legion fleet.

I can definately see myself playing these. What part did you think I'd have issue with?  

[Plaxor]

Actually not you. The rest of the universe. 4AC on a CL? Terrible.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

@Admiral

Its easy to say it was bad positioning because it didn't work.  Hindsight and all.  Truth be told, some of it was.  I should have moved my Devestation that was rammed differently.  At the time, it didn't look likely to happen that way.  The blast marker on one made the Ld check less likely to pass and deducted 5cm from the move.  I could have even survived the ramming had my Ld 9 brace test passed.  But he rolled high enough to just barely reach me despite the obstacles in his way and the dice were against me from then on.

Not just easy. Carriers are not supposed to be with gunships, not unless it's an Emperor or Oberon. Carriers are supposed to support the gunships, staying out and plinking targets of opportunity. The problem is with your positioning, you would be getting a BM. You would be getting 5 cm. I won't include the dice rolls because those are out of your control but setting the Devs in front with the Desolator? That was definitely bad positioning.
  

On the otherhand my overall strategy had worked.  The Dictators and Retribution were seperated from the Murder/Hades vs Lunar fight which I won hands down.  My Desolator relocated successfully.  If the game had continued, I was about to AAF my MMMH to the far side of the board where there was a planet.  Taking advantage ov the gravity well I was going to flip them around 180 and come back at them with LO lances blazing.  That was the point of the bait.  I wanted to fight half of his fleet at first and then flip around and fight the rest.

Again, I would have done differently. I would have shot my MMMH lances against the Retribution and let the Desolator handle the Lunars. BFI'd Ret would be now less useful. Lunars would now be plinked by the Desolator. It's about choosing which target for what. You have the advantage in range for at least 2 turns. Use it.

Let whoever hasn't lost a ship to bad positioning and bad luck cast the first stone.  

I disagree. It is actually the person who has lost a ship to bad positioning who should cast the first stone because he has experienced it firsthand to know that it was bad postioning. But that's me.

[Phthisis]

@Admiral

Of course, you are right. About the stone, I just don't want every person on the board to come by and say 'bad positioning' at me.  I know I shouldn't do it again.  First game with a new fleet and a new strategy.  I am suitably chastised.  Lets move on.  Im more interested in ideas of how to counter a torpedo shotgun. Got any ideas?

The MMMH against the BB and the lone BB vs 3 Lunars?  That doesn't seem right to me.  Are you sure?

@Plaxor
The rest of the universe..ugh. 

My response to 4 bays being terrible is the SM Strike Cruiser.  160 buys you 3 bays with T-Hawks (which usually take up 2 bays each), 6+ armor and Space Marine rules.  To get something similar with this proposed Chaos CL, I'd have to spend 185 and still have fewer bays, weaker armor and fixed (arguably weaker) weaponry. 

[Plaxor]

Interesting thought, I was trying to make it as palatable to the others as possible.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

@Admiral

Of course, you are right. About the stone, I just don't want every person on the board to come by and say 'bad positioning' at me.  I know I shouldn't do it again.  First game with a new fleet and a new strategy.  I am suitably chastised.  Lets move on.  Im more interested in ideas of how to counter a torpedo shotgun. Got any ideas?

Was joking about the last line, hence the smiley. LoL! As to your inquiry, just have a couple of fighters handy. Remember 1 fighter counter will take out the entire torp (well, haven't checked Plaxor's rules yet re this).

The MMMH against the BB and the lone BB vs 3 Lunars?  That doesn't seem right to me.  Are you sure?

Yep, that's what I would do. Desolator has the range to handle 2 of the Lunars on LO for 2 turns and if the Lunars are squadroned, then one going on BFI means they're screwed (again unless Plaxor has changed his rules on squadroning). The Desolator can even focus on the Dictator's to minimize the shotgun instead of the Lunars. have the Lunars keep firing torps if they have to, just have a couple of fighters handy. Do not commit your Devs in this case. They will be support and opportunists with their lances even at 45 cm.

You just need to keep the Ret occupied. It's the main long range threat. Neutralyze it by any means: make it BFI with the MMMH, put some BMs on it, send some bombers vs it, torp it with whatever torps you have, just don't let it be unoccupied. The drive the MMMH in between the Ret and the Lunars and fire away on LO at pointblank range Str 40 WBs with a couple of lances hitting the trailers.

Again, mileage may vary. And oh, do NOT BFI the MMMH until it is about to go behind the enemy formation of your next turn where its guns would be less efficient.

[Phthisis]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!
Nobody has done this or experienced this but my gaming group?

6 ships with torps including 2 carriers (6 torps, 8 squadrons).  They get within 30cm and unless you have more than 8 CAP on every ship, as far as I can see, there is no way youre not taking every torpedo in the face.  Average 59cm range with blast markers in the way.  Lots of damage.  Bracing usually not an option at that point, is it?  Chaos gets no Firedrakes and can't shunt torps off 6+ armor.  What do you vet Chaos players do to mitigate this?

@Admiral

Ok, I will give it a try next game.

[horizon]

lol,
From what I experienced Imperial Navy & Chaos are 50/50 balanced.
Imperial Navy having a slightly steeper learning curve. This explains the fact most of the complaints come from IN players not being able to beat Chaos in their first games.

So, yeah, you're unique.

Chaos can shunt of 6+ armour with ease -> Lances always 4+. Bombers attack 5+.

Chaos has more speed. Use it. It almost seems as if you are waiting for the shotgun. Manoeuvre. Make the AAF run for the complete(!) IN fleet hard to pull. The IN has to pass Ld tests as well to do so.

Do you play with celestial phenomena? If yes - use it ; If no - start to use it 

[Plaxor]

Pthisis,

I would recommend trying the Attack Rating based CP deployment. Turns out for interesting games, and should help against the Nova cannon.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!
Nobody has done this or experienced this but my gaming group?

6 ships with torps including 2 carriers (6 torps, 8 squadrons).  They get within 30cm and unless you have more than 8 CAP on every ship, as far as I can see, there is no way youre not taking every torpedo in the face.  Average 59cm range with blast markers in the way.  Lots of damage.  Bracing usually not an option at that point, is it?  Chaos gets no Firedrakes and can't shunt torps off 6+ armor.  What do you vet Chaos players do to mitigate this?

As I said, focus your Desolator's fire on the Dictators. You have at least 2 turns for this. Focus the lances of the MMMH on the Retribution. have the fighters handle the torps, not the bombers. Let the turrets handle the torps. Get the Murders within 30 cm of the Lunars and LO away. Do not be afraid to take damage.

[RCgothic]

Hellbringer Light Cruiser       150 pts

Type/Hits    Speed/Turns    Shields/Turrets
Cruiser/6          25/90                  1/2

Port Launch Bays: 2
Stbd Launch Bays: 2
Prow Lances: 2 30cm F

Special Rules: Improved Thrusters, The Hellbringer was designed specifically as a planetary assault vessel and therefore scores two assault points for every turn it spends landing troops in a planetary assault mission.

This sounds reasonable to me, though it is a very efficient way of getting AC. For 40pts less than a Dev, you lose p/sb lances, 2 hits, 1 shield, 1 turret, and L/F/R on the prow weapons and the ideal abeam aspect, but gain improved thrusters, 90' turns and the assault point rules. I think that's probably just about right. I have less trouble believing a Chaos CL can have S4 LBs than an Imperial CL, because they're wider and therefore have more internal volume.

[Taggerung]

Ya looks good to me. It's 40 points more than the Enforcer but loses a lance but gains 2 launch bays. So that seems good for 40 pts.

[Taggerung]

@Plaxor

I have been thinking about the Space Marine fleet, and have been wanting to try them out, but I keep passing over them (Which is sad because I play Space Marines and Orks in 40k), and I was wondering, if it were possible to do like you did for battle barges being any ship they want for +35 pts, but do that for cruisers as well. I really can't see the strike cruisers being very good, only 1 shield (I believe it's blank for the regular strike cruiser, but 1 for the Vanguard), yea they are 6+ all around, but 4 hits in a round and the thing is crippled. They also have quite poor firepower for their cost.

I play Space Wolves, and you even mention in the battlebarge fluff that they usually don't have a conventional fleet, which is quite true. In the fluff, they don't even have any battle barges in the traditional sense. Logan Grimnar uses a captured Retribution class battleship for his flag ship. I can see keeping this limited, perhaps for every strike cruiser you may take an imperial/chaos cruiser at +35 pts. Just a thought, because I have been struggling to find a paint scheme for my Imperials to use, and I would love to do them up in Space Wolf colors, and then all I would have to do is pick up a few strike cruisers, and I could use it as both IN or Space Marines when I want.

It may just be a dream, but I think it would be neat, and make the fleet more appealing.

@All

Thoughts?