September 12, 2024, 12:22:39 PM

Author Topic: List of flawed ships  (Read 290268 times)

Offline Plaxor

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1106
  • Tyrant of BFG:Revised
    • BFG files
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1050 on: March 02, 2011, 04:47:24 PM »
Commander, don't make me send you to the warp where I put the Baron!


Prow armour is overrated. 30pts to make one location 6+ from 5+? where it's only 10 pts to make all locations 5+ from 4+? Smotherman is just innaccurate here.

On Orks it's not so bad, 20 points for the whole package feels about right. 6+/5+/4+ is less than half the price of 6+/5+ and the only real disadvantage is vs. bombers.

Anyways, RC, no Admech allies? What? Not even 0-1 ship for every 1500 points?

Offline RCgothic

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 795
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1051 on: March 02, 2011, 05:00:39 PM »
I don't see why they're needed within the list. Just use the standard reserve rules.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 05:23:00 PM by RCgothic »

Offline Valhallan

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 178
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1052 on: March 02, 2011, 06:53:40 PM »
i think the 5L and FP12 is the best vicky option (at 370).

it is visually discernible from every IN battleship (its actually the Terra from BoN, but noboby ever talks about that).
it is not the strongest standoff battleship/gunship (apoc), so does not create any new power prescience.
it is unique if not flavorful - it is basically the 'other' fix for the old ret (giving it +2 broadside lances for +25 points).

there is nothing wrong with this option for the ship.

___________
if the overlord is replacing the mercury, then should it get an NC option for consistency?

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1037
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1053 on: March 02, 2011, 07:18:47 PM »
The only arguments I'm hearing against can be summed up as 'no, you're just wrong'. Come up with something convincing, or don't bother.

Just goes to show you're not reading my posts. I have already given my reasoning. At best, I would only tack on a 5 point increase, no more, if only based on the Dominator example and that one was a change from FP12 to FP6, much worse than FP12 to FP18.

And again, your proof relies on assumptions, much the same way as Smotherman made assumptions.

Offline BaronIveagh

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 859
    • Dark Reign
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1054 on: March 02, 2011, 09:44:14 PM »
Commander, don't make me send you to the warp where I put the Baron!

You rang?


Not that I'm really paying attention to this thread, but I was mentioned.
non nobis domine non nobis sed nomine tua da na glorium

Offline RCgothic

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 795
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1055 on: March 02, 2011, 10:56:28 PM »
The only arguments I'm hearing against can be summed up as 'no, you're just wrong'. Come up with something convincing, or don't bother.

Just goes to show you're not reading my posts. I have already given my reasoning. At best, I would only tack on a 5 point increase, no more, if only based on the Dominator example and that one was a change from FP12 to FP6, much worse than FP12 to FP18.

And again, your proof relies on assumptions, much the same way as Smotherman made assumptions.

That's a strong contender for least worthwhile upgrade in the entire game. You could get 20 points back for taking half the firepower and it would still be dubious just for 15cm extra range, so that hardly proves your point.

There's simply no way (not even close!) that a range upgrade is worth the kind of value you are ascribing to it. FP18@45cm vs FP12@60cm will earn the initial dice back in 3 turns under even the least favourable conditions. This doesn't even account for using both broadsides or the fact that paying for off-side firepower(let alone ranged off-side firepower!) and prow firepower is nearly useless on a stand off vessel.

If you're happy to pay +50% for an upgrade, even knowing half of it will never be used, you're effectively saying WBs@60cm must be twice as good as 45cm ones. That is not and never will be the case. Even if they're 40% better (still exceptionally dubious), that means an upgrade price of 20%. 20% gives an equivalency between FP15@60 and FP18@45.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 11:03:24 PM by RCgothic »

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1037
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1056 on: March 03, 2011, 12:42:57 AM »
Unfortunately, I am NOT the one ascribing to it, rather the Blue Book IS. If you have any issues, take it up with the game designers. Until then, that's the proof that I have without me making any assumptions. You can claim the book is wrong but until the book is changed, I'm following the precedent.

Offline RCgothic

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 795
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1057 on: March 03, 2011, 07:42:55 AM »
And seeing as how the whole point of this project is to fix what the book got wrong, there's no point keeping precedents it set that were the wrong ones.

Sigoroth and I have so far offered three different arguments why the price of range upgrade should be reduced:

#1. The extra dice you get from additional range simply don't add up to the extra dice you get from additional firepower.
#2. There appears to be no such premium for range on Lances, which are better at range in every way.
#3. As the additional 45-60cm on the off-side is so unlikely to be used, you are effectively paying double. This means for an a range upgrade to be worth +50%, the actual effectiveness has to be +100%. This is patently not the case.

Your counter-argument has been:
A: The rulebook says it's worth +50%.

Yes, we know the rulebook says that. It's WRONG, and that's why we're changing it.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 09:29:17 AM by RCgothic »

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1037
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1058 on: March 04, 2011, 01:09:01 AM »
And seeing as how the whole point of this project is to fix what the book got wrong, there's no point keeping precedents it set that were the wrong ones.

Sigoroth and I have so far offered three different arguments why the price of range upgrade should be reduced:

#1. The extra dice you get from additional range simply don't add up to the extra dice you get from additional firepower.

Reduced maybe but not by much. Which is why I think 5 points is a fair increase from 45 cm to 60 cm. You get an extra round of firing. You can then lock on in the rounds immediately after which is a rather potent ability for WBs. Those I think gives it merit.

#2. There appears to be no such premium for range on Lances, which are better at range in every way.

Yes, probably needs to be fixed.

#3. As the additional 45-60cm on the off-side is so unlikely to be used, you are effectively paying double. This means for an a range upgrade to be worth +50%, the actual effectiveness has to be +100%. This is patently not the case.

Your counter-argument has been:
A: The rulebook says it's worth +50%.

Yes, we know the rulebook says that. It's WRONG, and that's why we're changing it.

That wasn't all my argument. I've also pointed out the argument in the reply I made to your #1 point. You seem to have missed that as well. In addition, your ship is now in the abeam profile and much better protected vs WB fire at an earlier point in the battle. Those are things which you cannot just discount nor price easily. The additional range IS likely to be used. You even pointed out the percentages yourself. You. Not me.

And any commander with 60 cm attacks would want to make sure that band is used as early as he can esp on a battleship with the right firepower. The problem actually is with the Retribution. Low FP and being forced to be used as a linebreaker. The updated 30-45cm band of the Retribution is the one which will not most likely be used because it would prefer to get in there and batter away. A ship with the right firepower (say your FP15 cm Invincible) and 60 cm weapons would prefer to shoot at range since you can get 2 extra rounds of firing and at least one of them on Lock On. Now the Overlord suffered because it only has FP8. If it had FP10 at the same points cost, I think it would be effective.

Now is it 100% more effective? Depends really on how one plays. One can play it by shooting at range. Another can play it linebreaking style. 2-3 turns of shooting vs 1? 1-2 turns of shooting on Lock On vs none to 1? You tell me.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 01:10:56 AM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »

Offline lastspartacus

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1279
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1059 on: March 04, 2011, 04:44:20 AM »
Oh, I like the 'twin linked turrets' idea.

Offline Plaxor

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1106
  • Tyrant of BFG:Revised
    • BFG files
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1060 on: March 04, 2011, 12:02:40 PM »
Just uploaded the 'rules' which includes the front cover, foreword, and everything from the Advanced, core, and beginning of 'fleet lists' sections. Next job will be to adapt/update the IN document to the end of this.

Offline RCgothic

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 795
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1061 on: March 04, 2011, 01:18:17 PM »
Can't find it.  ???

Offline Plaxor

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1106
  • Tyrant of BFG:Revised
    • BFG files
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1062 on: March 04, 2011, 07:56:51 PM »
It's the document labeled 'Rules 1.0'.

I've noticed a few errors, I forgot to put in the mercenaries rule (but I reference it quite a bit) and more situational details on Allies/Reserves, guess I was tired.

I'm certain I screwed something up in ordnance too. Just haven't found it yet.

Offline Plaxor

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1106
  • Tyrant of BFG:Revised
    • BFG files
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1063 on: March 08, 2011, 04:24:35 AM »
Just uploaded Rules 1.1. This is the Final version (I think I've finally gotten the hang of this :))

Anyways, next to do is the IN. Hopefully, although I remembered the issues that I was having with updating it earlier (the reasons that I was waiting so long)

I was waiting for BFK to come out (should be about next week) but that's not a huge thing. Also I wanted to see IA10, if anyone could help me out with that it would be much appreciated, although I can get by if this question isn't a yes;

Are there images of the ships?

BTW, RC's profile wins on the Invincible.

Offline RCgothic

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 795
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #1064 on: March 08, 2011, 07:54:20 AM »
Sorry I haven't got back to you yet, I have been going through it, but I've been crazy-busy! Have been patching up a grapefruit sized dent in my car and have engagement parties that require travelling both last weekend and this one coming up!

From 1.0, the most major thing I've found is I'd say that the Resilience/Fighter sections aren't clear. I'll check 1.1 for differences, then send comments.