List of flawed ships

[Sigoroth]

Boarding on MoN is now: opponent rolls 2d6 and picks the lowest.... pretty worthwhile IMO... but you are right about the dual upgrade thing.

All other marks are 15 points.

Presumably Hostile Environment applies to defending during a boarding action. If a ship bearing a MoN boards an enemy I can't see how the living conditions aboard the Nurgle ship could result in such a severe penalty to the boarded ship.

[Plaxor]

Well, boarding actions have people going across to both ships no? Besides, the vessel would no doubt be unleashing a number of toxins and plagues onto the subject vessel.

Let's look at how much of a penalty it is... (quite important)

So results on 2D6 pick the lowest are:

1,1 1,2 1,3, 1,4, 1,5, 1,6 2,1 3,1 4,1 5,1 6,1  =1    (11)
2,2 2,3 2,4 2,5 2,6  6,2 5,2 4,2 3,2 = 2  (9)
3,3 3,4 3,5 3,6 6,3 5,3 4,3 =3 (7)
4,4 4,5 4,6 6,4 5,4 = 4 (5)
5,5 5,6 6,5 =5 (3)
6,6 = 6 (1)

Overall average roll. ~2.5
Compared to a normal average of 3.5

Not terribly harsh.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Fluff wise, the Despoiler was rediscovered when special dispensation was granted for an explorator team to land on Barbarus, the Death Guard homeworld, and sift through the ruins for lost tech.  That happened in M36, but the ship design is pre-heresy.  Thats why venerable battle barges and the Vengeful Spirit are all very similar to the Despoiler. That dispensation was a part of the Gaerox Perogative, which was a vast exploration program in an attempt to find STC and lost tech.  This is approved cannon.  Am I the only one who knows this?

The design of the Despoilers were taken from the Terminus Est which is not a Despoiler and yes was pre-Heresy. The Vengeful Spirit and Terminus Est are similar but for sure they aren't Despoilers. That's the reason why you're the only one who knows it because you're erring in your belief that Despoilers were pre-heresy.

"The Terminus Est was one of the first capital ships assigned to the Death Guard by the Emperor. It was of a unique design that pre-dated the Great Crusade and which was copied in M36 as part of the Gareox Prerogative to create the Despoiler class. As might be expected the older vessel was considerably more powerful than the later copy."

So really, the Despoilers are the ones which are similar to the T.E. and Vengeful Spirit and not the other way around.

[Phthisis]

@Admiral

Ok, you got me.  The Despoiler is similar to the Terminus Est and the Vengeful Spirit and the Venerable Battle Barges, not the other way around. 

My point was that the Despoiler was a resurection of the pre-heresy battle barge, and other than shifting 2 launch bays to the prow the ships are virtually identical.  The Vengeful Spirit and other battle barges of the time are heavy in forward lances, many of them short range, and lots of launch bays, which make them primarily suited for an attack carrier role rather than long range fleet support.

At this point I'm dropping my argument about the Despoiler.  I'm happy with the Desecrator as Chaos' attack carrier and if I ever get a hankering for an old timey battle barge I'll just use the Chaos Battle Barge stats from the Powers of Chaos doc.

[Taggerung]

@Plaxor

Looking good! That new Chaos ship is a bit scary for me lol. It's ok...the Deadnot when it's published shall be my answer!

[Plaxor]

So I'm thinking 'Hostile Environment' will only be a defensive quality, and it will be given to all daemonships (meaning MoN on daemonships will be 5pts cheaper)

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

My point was that the Despoiler was a resurection of the pre-heresy battle barge, and other than shifting 2 launch bays to the prow the ships are virtually identical.  The Vengeful Spirit and other battle barges of the time are heavy in forward lances, many of them short range, and lots of launch bays, which make them primarily suited for an attack carrier role rather than long range fleet support.

Yes but aren't we debating about the speed aspect? Look at the Vengeful Spirit. Speed 20 cm. Look at the Terminus Est. Speed 20 cm. Scion of Prospero based on the same hull as the other two, 20 cm. And the Despoilers? 20 cm. So by your logic, speed 20 cm for the Despoiler is fine since the Vengeful Spirit and Terminus Est are both primarily attack carriers and that's what you want the Despoilers to be right?

[Plaxor]

I'll see if I can build a corrected Ork document. It sucks cause I know that one will be the most tedious.... oh well.

Notes on special rules, that should be, presented there;

Heavy: Does 2 points of damage for each hit
Innaccurate: Does not gain a left column shift for range
Elite Cadre (now what Mega-armored nobs are): -1 to enemy H&R, +1 to H&R, +2 boarding mod, replaces aggressive
Aggressive: +1 boarding mod
Augmented Damage Control: Repair critical hits on a 4+ (what mad meks are changing to)
Frenzied: Doubles boarding value.

I'm slightly tempted to make a single 'Despaired Drives' rule for transports and orks, but this would make their entire fleet move 3d6 on AAF rather than 2d6. Then soopa engines would give the Improved thrusters special rule... (so still 4d6) but I think that's more than its worth.

Then of course a race-specific special rule:
Power Fluctuations; every time this weapon is fired place a blast marker in contact with the ship at (or as close as possible) to the back of the ship.

[Plaxor]

Nevermind on the despaired drives. There are enough ships with 2d6AAF to justify another special.

Limited Fuel: Moves 2D6 on AAF

[Phthisis]

@Admiral

My argument was never that the original Despoiler needed a speed boost.  My argument was that the new Despoiler profile needed one.  An attack carrier needs either a formidible forward armament or armored prow to bully its way through an enemy line or, failing that, sufficient speed to blow past them or keep in formation with a gun line.
The Despoiler had 7 lances fore.  After the rework it didn't have enough in the front to be a threat.  It became a fleet support ship that couldn't keep up to suppot the fleet.  I felt that the new despoiler needed 5cm to be useful in the only two roles it could perform.  Chaos desperately needs a functioning attack carrier.
The Desecrator is still predominantly a fleet support ship but with enough threat to the fore to be useful as an attack carrier as well.  IMO, the desecrator is a superior ship in all regards.  So there is no point in arguing about the Despoiler because there is a functioning attack carrier and the Despoiler can remain the fleet support carrier everone seems to want it to be.

[Plaxor]

His argument was that the Despoiler doesn't fit the fluff well.

[Eldanesh]

Some suggestions/ideas

-IMO Chaos ships should get a lower basic LD compared to IN. In fact most chaos fleets are Raiders (translate: pirates) and I can't see that these have the same level of organisation as a professional warfleet. So -1LD wouldn't be a bad idea.
Gamewise this evens out the underpriced basic cruiser (IMO a very big advantage) and also makes the LD increases of Lords, Warmasters etc. a bit more valuable.

- all capital ships in all fleets should have acces to Marks. At all I think that the worshipping of a special god is more specific to the vessel/it's crew than to the captain

- Introduce a Mark of Chaos Undivided: this should be cheap (~10 Points) and increase the LD by +1 (cumulative to other improvements like CSM crew, Warmaster etc.). Backgroundwise you have a determination between "pirate scum" and traitor navy veterans, gamewise ...well, reduces the advantage of underpriced ships ^^

-  It should be impossible to have Ships mit MoK and MoS in the same fleet as well as ships with MoN and MoT unless the Warmaster has the Mark of Chaos undivided. This a "fluff" matter: I hate it when marks are just used like ship upgrades: carriers usually get MoT, boarding ships Mok, 'disruptor beacon' get MoS etc.
This should not be. Marks should give you the opportunity to flavour your flleet or shift your gamestyle and not to take the most effcient upgrade that is avaible...

[Plaxor]

Eldanesh.... we might have to put you back in the warp with BaronI.

We all have confidence that IN could Murder chaos just fine. Besides the chaos fleet represents renegade navy, and highly trained chaos equivalents. Smarter than Orks or your random wolf pack or what not. Besides... there are rules for wolf-packs already.

You're basically telling me that Chaos is overpowered and each ship should be 10 points more expensive.... In this internal balance was a little more important than fleet balance. The only three fleets deemed significantly worse than the norm were Orks, Admech and SMs. These three got a boost (at least a little... in the case of Sms). Otherwise, every other fleet is 'close enough' to right to not warrant such a significant change.

It did always seem kinda wonky that you needed a character/sms to purchase a mark.... It's worth assuming that you would need some substantial influence to get a God to gift you with such powers.

The MoT would be useless en masse.... MoS pretty useless in the same respect, but not as bad. There are only so many leaderships that you can re-roll.

GW doesn't believe in a MoCU, and I used to disapprove that they got rid of it... but you know what... it never really made sense anyways.

Anyways I don't really feel like arguing about things further. Get 'Em Sigoroth!

Note: this usually works better when Sigoroth is around to reply.

[Plaxor]

So I just uploaded an updated Ork fleets pdf. Yes... I realize I have two page 6's. I also wasn't too concerned with layout/image issues, mainly just the rules.

Note; I forgot to put in Big klaws/Drills, and the Deadnot should probably cost 475.... Meh. I'll get around to it later, but for now at least Taggerung and Relicjoo have something more correct to play with.

Pthisis/Taggerung... go forth and make exploded hulks out of one another and tell me how it goes.

[Taggerung]

@Plaxor

The more I think about it. Drop the side torpedoes on the Dednought, and keep it around 400 pts. The fleet doesn't need more torps lol