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Author Topic: List of flawed ships  (Read 290476 times)

Offline horizon

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #735 on: February 11, 2011, 11:16:11 AM »
*I am the LAW!*

Anywhhoo... I made the profile. Yes. To match the model.
Subsequently I did not care about the cost. :)

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #736 on: February 11, 2011, 11:28:04 AM »
Ladies and Gentlemen (Ha.)

Now presenting the man who is the Law;

Horizon.

Later; the Holy man Sigoroth (Horizon's quote), accompanied by the Legend RCgothic.

There seems to be a trend here.

Tell me Horizon, if you were to think about the cost?

I find that Smotherman has a few key errors in its pricing system, it really overvalues prow 6+ armor and undervalues 30cm wbs. But this isn't that important, it's based off how ships used to look.

Overall it seems that most good ships are 10-20 points cheaper than Smotherman would suggest.

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #737 on: February 11, 2011, 12:06:31 PM »
When you value the +1 to LD at 25 points, is that over the 6+ prow that is lost?

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #738 on: February 11, 2011, 12:12:10 PM »
Nope. 1ld is worth about 25 points. This doesn't account for the armor loss. I was just mentioning how valuable 1ld is to people.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #739 on: February 11, 2011, 12:56:20 PM »
@Admiral -  IN and Orks at this point.  Taggerung and I play.  He uses tons of torps and AC.  Lots of terror ships and ravagers with Gorbag.  Last game he had about 20 squadrons and 8 torpedo salvoes.  I couldn't even use cap since he clears them away with AC and bombs me with the rest.  Im seriously outnumbered in terms of ordinance.  My IN friend is constructing a list with an emperor and 2 dictators, so with torps I will be on my the defensive for ordinance as well.
Actually my last two games with Taggerung illustrate my point.  To avoid his alpha strike I have to skirt around him as he approaches.  Blast markers on my Despoiler kept it from keeping up both times and both times he killed it in two turns.  The despoiler just cant keep up.
Sure, I could take a desolater instead, but I build my fleet to represent Death Guard CSM and lance spam against orks and IN will just be mean and likely no fun for anyone.


Ok and 5 extra cm helps you how? Ordnance will still get you, 20 cm reduced to 15 cm or 25 cm reduced to 20 cm with BMs.

Offline Phthisis

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #740 on: February 11, 2011, 02:39:12 PM »
@Plaxor

The likelyhood of losing all three facings worth of launch bays is incredibly low.  The likelyhood that 3 crit rolls would take one or both bays out is a fraction of a percent.  My math shows a .35% increase in incedence for 2 bays over 3.  Hardly notable. On the other hand, with bays on 3 facings the likelyhood that you will lose one on a crit roll is 9/36.  P/S bays are only knocked out 5/36.  Thats over a 10% increase in incidence.  Also the largest bay is the one most likely to get knocked out.  That's not an even trade.

I am a Death Guard player, so my Despoiler gets a 100pt warmaster, 35pt Mark of Nurgle, 35pt CSMs.  Its a battle barge.  Considering that now it cant pust through an enemy fleet to assault a planet with the new profile, its a role the despoiler isn't well suited for.

Versus the emperor, the despoiler is marginally better at shooting, but against Eldar the Emperor is better.  However, they have different roles.  The emperor is a fleet support ship.  It can hang back and use its broadsides and launch while the rest of the fleet bullies their opponent around.  The Despoiler is an attack carrier that dukes it out along side the rest of the fleet.  15cm for an emperor  allows it to cruise slowly so it doesn't have to move out of range.  It doesn't need or want speed.  The chaos fleet cant bully the unemy like the IN can, so the despoiler has to keep up with the fleet to keep from being cut out and destroyed.

And yes, the Despoiler is lacklustre.  I actually think that adding 5cm will change that.

@Admiral
Youre right, 5cm wont stop it from getting shot up
  But it will keep it from being cut out from the fleet so easily.  If I'm going to skirt orks or IN bull charge, my ships go slow and fire at them as they close.  Then once they get close, they all move 10cm, turn and move 10-15cm.  Now they are out of the front fire arc and there is no hope of the orks or IN turning around to put me in their kill zone.  Plrblem is that the rest of the fleet moves around but the despoiler moves only 15 and turns 45 and cant go any rurther.  It satays alone in the kill zone and faces the full fury of the enemy fleet.  5cm would allow it to move after the turn and escape much of the fleet.  So now on turn 4, my despoiler isn't dead because its too slow. 

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #741 on: February 11, 2011, 03:11:39 PM »
A lot of stuff to cram into a BB. -25 points will help with that. What, no terminators?

Pthisis, locations... criticals... all not that large of a factor.

The only realistic way to change the spd is to convince other people that it is necessary. I will change it if enough people find it reasonable.

The Despoiler is a fleet support ship, they kind of tossed in the fact that it was made out of old BB designs later. It is by no means a good design for that... but you have to remember that CSMs operate differently than SMs. They don't use drop-pods, they use launch bays. This ship was made long before the Codex even existed.

Regardless of fluff, game mechanics take precedence. The ship is supposed to be a 'fleet support' role similar to the Emperor.

Smotherman Emperor costs 361, about right. This happens to cost 399, is imperfect for its role, which is why Chaos players don't like taking it, or any of the GCs for that matter.

How is this new profile worse for planetary assaults? Sure it lost some short range F only lances (quite useless on the profile) but gained P/S wbs, which makes it fit into the 'chaos cyclone of death' better. The locations of the launch bays shouldn't matter that much.

5cm of speed to save you from death by torpedoes eh? I think I would rather reduce the cost of the vessel by 20 points than give it that... as there is reason to make it cheaper due to its disruption of how the chaos fleet functions.


Offline Phthisis

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #742 on: February 11, 2011, 04:45:39 PM »
Thanks for putting the idea on the table for consideration!

Regarding terminators, why would I take them on a ship that I am trying to keep away from enemy ships?  And when it does get close, the Despoiler winds up crippled anway.  What good are they to the Despoiler as it is now?

I'm not arguing for a relocation of the bays.  I like how Horizon's stats reflect the appearance of the model.  It honestly did bug me that there was a huge launch bay in the front not mentioned or reflected in the rules.  So, as far as I'm concerned, Horizon's weapons stats should stay, regardless of how criticals work.  My reason for mentioning them was that you were saying that it's better than the emperor and that with 5cm speed it could make it perfect for it's attack role.  My response was simply to show you that there were several disadvantages to taking a Despoiler compared to an Emperor.  Adding 5cm won't make it flawless.

The old Despoiler functions miserably as a support ship.  It's an attack carrier through and through.  However, the new stats fundamentally change how the ship works.  It's not suited for headlong line-breaking charges anymore.  7 lances forward sent a clear message:  Get out of my way!  On approach it could get aggressive and cripple enemy ships in the front arc and leverage it's assault bays.  When partnered with some Murders, Styx and Hades (and to some degree an Acheron) you could construct a very effective line breaker formation that could punch it's way through planetary defenses and start landing marines.  At 400 pts the Despoiler held it's own and 20cm didn't really matter since the more turns it took you to advance the more lance shots you got and the lances ignored blast markers.  
Try to do that with a Despoiler now with only 3 lances and most of it's firepower on the sides.  If you try to run straight for the planet, the Despoiler becomes a load that needs to be carried, a very expensive and ponderous load.  20cm now is a detriment because it will take much longer to reach the target.  Of course, you can always stick to the same strategy that an Emperor would and take the long way around the planet while trying to clear away defenses with long range fire, but as you can't CTNH you aren't going to ever get to the planet.  Considering that it's the ship that you need to get to the planet to land troops, I doubt many will use it in the "support ship" role you want it in. I'm surprised you didn't catch this when you changed the proflie.

Even though the firepower and bays are equal to the Emperor, I don't think that the Despoiler fits that role well as there aren't any 6+ prows or torpedo salvoes to keep an enemy from AAFing beind the Chaos battle line and striking directly at the Despoiler.  You try that against Imperials or Orks and youre getting rammed, boarded or torpedoed to death.

On that note, the Despoiler was the only attack carrier that Chaos had as the Devestations and Styx are obviously fleet support.  Now Chaos doesn't have a battleship capable of line breaking either.  They are all fleet support.

Whenever they added the Gaerox Perogative fluff, it doesn't really matter.  Cannon says that the Despoiler is a battle barge.  In the 13th Crusade list, it is actually used as a battle barge.  I would agree that game mechanics are key.  I wouldn't make an invincible ship just to stay in line with fulff.  But I would also agree that you don't just override GW fluff because your game mechanic doesn't fit their fluff.  Despoiler is a battle barge.  It performed that role well with it's old configuration.  I like the new configuration as it reflects the model, but the ship still needs to function as  a battle barge and an attack carrier both to stay in line with the fluff and allow the rest of the Chaos fleet to function as it should.
Thing is, there is an easy change that allows us to keep Horizon's profile and let the Despoiler function as the battle barge attack carrier it was always intended.  Add 5cm of movement.  The speed will help compensate for it's lack of forward firepower as a line breaker and will allow it to keep up with the rest of the chaos fleet when fulfilling an attack carrier role.  Yes, it will require some more strategy than before, but 5cm will suffice without drastically changing the ship.

IF you acknowledge that the Despoiler is now a disruption to the Chaos strategy, I'd rather see points stay the same and the speed raised.  Even for 20pts less, the Chaos fleet still doesn't have an aggressive BB or an assault carrier.  My issue isn't with the cost of the ship, its with the fact that the slower speed offers up 1/3 of your fleets points as a sacrifice in any of the Chaos fleet's strategies.




« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 04:59:35 PM by Phthisis »

Offline Valhallan

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #743 on: February 11, 2011, 07:03:34 PM »
aggressive carrier = revised retaliator

The despoiler has always been a finicky ship.

keeping it with the fleet isn't that hard, just don't move your cruisers their full 25 if the despy has BM in contact. place it ahead of the fleet formation during deployment to mitigate the inconsistency of speeds. also take a repulsive to guard it, that's some scary umph right there.

also: if your on the defense most of the time with 16LB... consider dropping the CSM from your ship, those points could be better elsewhere.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #744 on: February 11, 2011, 07:33:59 PM »
Perhaps we should be including the Desecrator class battleship?

With S9 Forward torps, 6WBs dorsal, 4 launch bays and speed 25cm, you've got your attack carrier. That's 6.5Le direct fire in the forward arc. It's stronger at range and below 15cm than the Devestation was.

If you want cheap and don't mind not being a carrier, the Desolator is just as strong in the forward arc.

If that's not enough, and Chaos should have a super-linebreaker similar to the Retribution, then we could make our own up.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #745 on: February 11, 2011, 09:51:45 PM »
@RC, for linebreaker see 'Traitor Fleets' Relictor class battleship. It's basically the Conqueror from PoC.

He wants an old battlebarge as his flagship.... it's just that.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #746 on: February 11, 2011, 11:08:25 PM »
Firstly, Chaos has never been a line breaking fleet. The fact that their BBs are support ships simply suits their style. As for the Despoiler being a battlebarge, so what? How does battlebarge equate to line-breaking battleship? It simply says to me that the Despoiler was used as a centre of operations, which is quite appropriate for a carrier. What isn't appropriate is trying to turn a carrier into a line-breaker. A gunship would be much more suited to that role.

Having said that I've got a Despoiler conversion with a closed prow that more suits the original stats. I would suggest that if you want an attack carrier style battleship then just convert the model to close the prow bays, add 2 sets of bays to the side instead of 1 set and use the original stats.

As for the cost, well for a start, the Chaos Warmaster is overpriced. At the very most it should be 75 pts. If Chaos had an option of a Ld 8 (or even Ld +1) Warmaster for 50 pts then the Despoiler/Emperor comparison would not be near so bad. Secondly, the MoN is very very overpriced. At just +20 pts it would be quite expensive. I think +15 pts would be far more in keeping, particularly as you have to pay for some other upgrade (WM, CL or CSM) in order to access it in the first place.

So if we were looking at a Despoiler with WM (50 pts, 1RR, +1Ld), CSM and MoN  (15 pts) it would only cost 500 pts. I personally think the Despoiler should come down to 390 pts. If you take the 25 pts off the Emp to account for the Ld bonus from the prow sensor array then this would mean the Desp would be paying 50 pts for increased overall firepower (+3WBe focus, +4WB offside), better firepower at long range (lances > WBs) and extra speed. This isn't too bad.

So the Desp is a little pricey, but by far the biggest problem is in the cost of the upgrades and leaders. Hell, even the CSM upgrade can come down a little. It's OK paying 35 pts as a once off, but when you start trying to give it to multiple ships it quickly becomes rubbish.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #747 on: February 11, 2011, 11:18:45 PM »
^What Sig said.

@Sig  The chaos warmaster is going to 75pts. I decided that all the 'more expensive' commanders were way overpriced. They should only cost +25 points for each point of LD. This was after discovering the thing that bugged me about the Emperor wasn't the fact that it was incorrectly priced, it was the bigger commanders that were.

So the IN commanders will look like this;

Ld 8  50pts
Ld 9  75
Ld 10 100pts

Chaos will follow suite. Admech already had its bigger commander reduced to 75.

I do agree that commanders are a huge points sink, and that's the reason why they were reduced. The upgrades are good unless you want to put them on more than one ship....

Perhaps a tiered system for purchase? Or maybe -10 points on all the marks/csms?

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #748 on: February 12, 2011, 01:56:58 AM »
I came up with a solution for out 'expensive mark' conundrum.

Marks at -5 to -20 cost (depending... MoT always seemed like a rip-off considering it only gave a re-roll, and not even that worthwhile of one, MoS is decent, but not worth taking en masse. MoN is overpriced, but it does provide an advantage for crippling damage, and you can't be boarded. MoK is probably fine, but maybe -5 points?)

Every CSM ship must have a mark if one is chosen. Of course they must be that mark. Ships with Lords, or in a Lord's squadron may choose a different mark or no mark.

I was also thinking about Terminators, they are kinda crummy anyways with teleport attacks being hard to pull off, and H&R being fairly pointless anyways. I was thinking maybe -5 points here, or they could apply to all H&R attacks (which would do wonders for ABs) when purchased. This would make special rules easier, as all similar upgrades would fall under the 'elite strike forces' rule (or some better name, maybe just 'Terminators')

Offline Phthisis

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #749 on: February 12, 2011, 02:20:47 AM »
@Sigroth  There are a lot of forward facing lances in the Chaos fleet.  For around 1500 points I can get 22 lances on the advance using the old despoiler stats.  15 of those are 60cm and the rest are 30cm.  There's a fair amount of side weaponry too.  Pretty good for a line breaking list, especiall if there's no need to turn and you can lock-on untill you pass through.

A battle barges role is to cut its way to a planet and land the astartes inside.  Thats why it has to be an attack carrier and why it has to be useful foe breaking a defensive line.  Please refer to the Powers of Chaos document to see some examples.

I'm glad you brought the upgrades and commanders up.  They always seemed pricey yo me but I took them because I wanted a fluffy list.

@Plaxor

If my only concern was I wanted a battle barge then I would just use the Terminus Est or a standard barge from the Powers of Chaos draft.  My concerns are about this particular version of it.  I still think that it need a 5cm boost to speed and it will be a good ship.

Do you mean if I buy one mark then every capital ship in the fleet has to have one?