List of flawed ships

[Taggerung]

So far Plaxor thanks for doing all this work, my gaming group is working on using these lists as they are much more balanced.

One thing I would like to see is an Ork Gun Kroozer that can come close to matching the firepower of some of the IN/Chaos ships...or just some variety in the fleet...Only 2 types of Cruisers is pretty pathetic.

Perhaps something along these lines for a cruiser

Cruiser - 10, 20cm, 45degrees, 1 shield, 6+/5+/4+ , 2 turrets - 180 points

Prow Gunz - 45cm - D6 + 6 front/left/right
Prow Heavy Gunz - 15cm - 6 - front

Port Gunz - 30cm - D6 + 4 - Left
Port Heavy Gunz - 15cm - 4 - Left

Starboard Gunz - 30cm - D6 + 4 - Right
Starboard Heavy Gunz - 15cm - 4 - Right

Special Rules - May purchase Soopa Enginz at 10 pts

or something like this for a Battlekroozer

Zappa Class Battlekroozer
Kroozer - 10, 20cm, 45degrees, 2 shield,  6+/5+, 2 turrets - 200 points

Prow Lance - 45cm - D6

Port Gunz - 30cm - D6 - Left
Port Lance - 30cm - 2 - Left

Starboard Gunz - 30cm - D6 - Right
Starboard Lance - 30cm - 2 - Right

Special Rule - If all lances are used in a turn, or a 6 is rolled for the prow lance strength, then the ship suffers an immediate Fire result (Damage isn't taken until after repairs are attempted) due to faulty power lines running through out the ship.

Those are obviously rough sketches, but I would really like to see some more variety and an ork ship that can actually shoot! It's really pathetic the only viable strategy for orks is board and torp. Which speaking of that...Why is the Ravager still 40pts? The amount of torps a squadron can output is disgustingly good, and think they should probably be 45 pts to be fair.

CC is welcome.

ps...Yes I know Ork lances are taboo...but why? Why should they have to suffer with crappy batteries and not have access to lances? I realize they have Heavy gunz but Heavy gunz really aren't good, and I swap them out for something useful every chance I get.

[Plaxor]

Taggerung, your description of a cruiser is basically the stats for a Kill-Kroozer but more expensive.

Type/Hits   Speed/Turns   Shields   Armor   Turrets
Cruiser/10      20/45            1        6/5/4     2                    150pts

Prow Guns   D6+6@45cm Front 
Prow Heavy Guns 6@15cm Front

Port/Starboard Guns  D6+2@30cm left/right
Port/Starboard Heavy Guns  4@30cm left/right

May swap out D6 p/s guns for soopa engines at no cost.

May swap prow heavy guns with D6+2 torpedoes at +10 points
May swap port/starboard heavy guns with D6 torpedoes each for +10 points

Pretty decent for a shooty cruiser. One of the concerns of Ork development was that Orks could never win a shooting fight, only through boarding and ramming. With this amount of firepower they are quite comparable to IN cruisers of similar displacement in the prow. D6+6 is kinda like saying fp9.5, at 45cm it's quite good. They will always win out in a close range situation, as at 15cm they get the heavy guns which makes the FP about equivalent to 18. With the more expensive torps, it is considerable not to auto-swap the heavy guns.

Note that there is another class that was created in this. For 170 points you can get a Kill-Kroozer that fires torpedoes in all directions.

Lances and Bombardment cannons can't be available to anything smaller than a battlecruiser. Cruisers won't be able to outperform IN/Chaos cruisers, which is why they are cheaper, but it is perfectly reasonable to have battlecruisers that are as powerful or moreso than IN/Chaos cruisers.

The reason lances are taboo is for flavor purposes. Although I do like your lance Kroozer idea. I may adapt it at some point. Probably something similar to this:

Zaappa class battlekrooza:   230pts

Type/Hits    Speed/Turns    Shields   Armor   Turrets
Cruiser/10       20/45             2        6/5         2

Prow Guns:  D6+4@45cm
Prow Lances: D3+1@45cm
Port/starboard lances: D3@30cm
Port/starboard Guns: D6+1@30cm
Dorsal Heavy Guns: 6@15cm F/L/R

Special rule: Power fluctuations, every time the Zaappa fires a lance system, place a blast marker in contact with its base.

Basically you trade shields for lances.

Oh and on shooty lists, try this:

Slamblasta
Hammer + lbs
Kill-Kroozer x 4
Onslaughts to flesh it out

Warlord+Maniak Gunners (didn't forget about these right? They're cheap now, and work with the random lances on the slamblasta)  50 pts on a kill kroozer
Freeboota Kapitan + Extra powerfields, on the Hammer
Big Mek + Maniak Gunners on Slamblasta

That is a lot of Dakka if you ask me, and it will outrange any IN fleet. With ~4 lances and 6 bombardment cannon it's pretty good on the armor piercing weapons, especially considering the lances range. You should have enough gunz and launch bays to deal with any fight.

Ravager... increase cost? 3.5 torps on average isn't that much more than other torp escorts, it's weapons are forward only, it is much slower, can't combine torpedoes, and the most important factor.... it has lower leadership than normal. Ravagers never ever reload. They are so low on your priority list to reload that most players will only fire them once.

[Plaxor]

Oh and I forgot to mention, the Ork list is a bit of low-priority on fixing, so it likely won't see a revision for a month or so.

Notable changes however:

Inclusion of Deadnot (large battleship)
Merging of current battleships into single class (Kroolship)
Inclusion of CL 'Smasha'
Rework of Grunt

The Zappa might see the light of day too.

[RCgothic]

My God, I hate transcribing things.... anyone want to do me a solid and help out?

I'm currently on page 12 of the online 2007 version of the rulebook. Basically you can see what format I would like things in. If someone could start on 'the Ordnance phase, or shooting phase' that would be a big help.

I hate transcribing too. I did some for a few months after leaving uni and before I got a proper job. I still suffer from the repetitive strain injury in my left hand from all that.

I'll try and help you out a bit tonight.

[Phthisis]

How about bomber rules remain the same as they were in the original ruleset but surviving bombers make a minimum of 1 attack instead of a minimum of zero.  This will allow a chance of damaging high turret targets but doesnt increase their power against low turret targets.
If you want to encourage fighter escorts, say that a single fighter can wipe out a whole wave of bombers or assault boats unless there are fighters in the wave, and then enemy fighters only remove them on a 1 to 1 basis until the fighters are gone when the next fighter will clear the wave.  That will get people to include them unless they are within strike range in one phase.

[RCgothic]

I suggested somewhere that fighters should wipe out bomber waves, but there was an outcry over fighters having that high a kill ratio. Even 2-1 was shot down (no pun intended).

[Phthisis]

I can see why people would protest.  It really nerfs ordinance.  But the goal is to arbitrarily force players to use fighter escorts in waves and reducing the bomber or assaulr boat count to shoehorn some fighters in with a limited number of launch bays is always going to nerf ordinance.  There are only two ways we can get people to use fighter escorts.  We have the carrot of offering increased effectiveness for including fighters and the stick of making it risky to not take fighters.  The carrot we have is arbitrary, abstract, confusing and doesnt apply to assault boats.  The stick is not arbitrary, abstract, confusing and applies to assault boats as well.  Its the simplest solution and requires the least amount of change to the rules and explanation.
If I had my way, I wouldn't change the ordinance rules.  I don't see why bombers should have an easier time attacking well defended battleships and space stations, nor do I see why fighters should be included in waves as escorts when they do a perfectly fine job of clearing enemy fighters for bombers and assault boats when sent out as individual squadrons or pulled off CAP
 However, everyone else seems on board with these ideas and so I'm trying to help find a simple soution. 

[Taggerung]

I like the idea that bombers must have an escort or face destruction by enemy fighters...This gives fighta bommaz a boost after them getting nerfed by the turret suppression rules.

Plaxor,

I realize that my cruiser is just a more heavily armed one, but I feel that there should be some sort of stop gap between the battleships and the cruisers that could bring a decent amount of firepower to bear (Hence the prow guns being F/L/R)...Perhaps there is something that is just bristling with guns and has no heavy guns on it we could come up with?

I think your rendition of the Zappa would work well, maybe not quite that many points though...seems a bit high maybe that's just me...I do like the Heavy guns being L/F/R

I do get what you are saying about flavor for sure, but it's not like the orks shy away from strange weapons (The use a lot of energy based weapons on the table top actually, and are considered to have some of the most potent shields and tractor beams in the galaxy thanks to the old ones programming it into their brains)...

Now with that being said, I don't think they are a broken fleet or need fixing, I would just like to see some variety, and perhaps we can move away from the board and torp mentality.

[Plaxor]

I like the idea that bombers must have an escort or face destruction by enemy fighters...This gives fighta bommaz a boost after them getting nerfed by the turret suppression rules.

Considering that fact.... I honestly don't remember RC's multi-killing fighters.

I realize that my cruiser is just a more heavily armed one, but I feel that there should be some sort of stop gap between the battleships and the cruisers that could bring a decent amount of firepower to bear (Hence the prow guns being F/L/R)...Perhaps there is something that is just bristling with guns and has no heavy guns on it we could come up with?

Orks use mixed weaponry. Also they have no examples of L/F/R weapons other than the Brute. The KK is about as bristling with guns that cruisers can get, without being 'more' than IN/Chaos standards.

I think your rendition of the Zappa would work well, maybe not quite that many points though...seems a bit high maybe that's just me...I do like the Heavy guns being L/F/R

Lol, yeah needed something to put in the dorsal location, and I wasn't feeling the standard dorsal LBs. Probably is, but it was a rough estimate. Also the ship needed to be Unique from a 'slamblasta' type vessel. Remember D3 is kinda like saying 2.

I do get what you are saying about flavor for sure, but it's not like the orks shy away from strange weapons (The use a lot of energy based weapons on the table top actually, and are considered to have some of the most potent shields and tractor beams in the galaxy thanks to the old ones programming it into their brains)...

Their shields don't regen on the tabletop. Energy weapons? The Zzapp guns... other than that... really nothing, outside of Apoc and Epic. Orks prefer solid-slug Macrobatteries, as those weapons make sense to them. Tiny lazers that draw tons of power and don't have the pure Dakka feel.

Now with that being said, I don't think they are a broken fleet or need fixing, I would just like to see some variety, and perhaps we can move away from the board and torp mentality.

Yeah, I know. Remember that the KK overall gained 8fp, and is 20% cheaper than your average IN cruiser. It's firepower is even quite comparable at that level. Honestly I would love it if you tried it out and told me how it worked, it's always good to have a different person doing playtesting.

Don't worry about the differences in fleet lists, try building the best 'shooty' fleet possible. How about something like this:

Slamblasta:  335
Freeboota + Maniak Gunnerz 

Hammer + LBs  360
Freeboota Kapitan + Maniak Gunnerz + Turret
(fleet commander) +2 rerolls

KKx5  800
Freeboota Kapitan +Maniak Gunnerz

I don't think that you will be disappointed in how shooty this list is. Without the Warlords it really isn't so boarding oriented, Kroozers really don't want to board unless they have a significant advantage. With the extra leadership you'll be able to pass more LO checks, not to mention the 'Secondary commander rule'. I know its not 'legal' but just forget about the lists for the moment, as they are likely to change.

Lets compare it to an average IN list.... from the gothic sector:

Overlord + Targeting array  310
Fleet Admiral +re-roll

Mars 260

Tyrantx2 + range   380
Lunarx2 360
Gothic 180

So you have the same number of ships, but much more re-rolls and command bonuses. Comparing eq. firepower at each range band in the vessels primary arc (compensating for targeting array/maniak gunners) you have:

Range   Orks     IN
60cm     0        26
45cm    94.5     52!
30cm    106.5    88
15cm    150      88

As you can see the Orks are seriously winning this shooting fight, so long as they keep their enemy in their primary arc. Given their off side firepower isn't so great so, if the IN were to line-break the Ork formation, the IN would be out shooting them, but this is part of the tactics that makes the Orks just so interesting. It is a very unique playstyle, and will actually see tactics in this mod (rather than... fly towards enemy, board if enough hits are left, ram if not)

Given, the IN also has torps, and a nova cannon, but that should make the above listing less absurd. Alternatively, you could trim some points and upgrade torps on your KKs (losing short ranged firepower) to compare to that better.

[Plaxor]

Also another note on the list: Comparing number of lances (already noted in FP, but just numbers)

The IN have 12 in their list
The Orks have 4, but the bombardment cannon functions like a lance, so its more like 7 (or

Not that terrible.


Oh and the other class of Kroozer that I came up with you probably wouldn't like. Although variety is nice:

Type/Hits    Speed/Turns   Armour   Shields   Turrets
Cruiser/10       25/45         6+/4+       1           1

Prow Heavy Gunz    6
Prow Torpedoes    D6+2
Port/Starboard Heavy Gunz 6
Port/Starboard Torpedoes  D6

I could possibly see giving Orks a bombardment cannon cruiser.... like this one but with a prow bombard instead of the Torps. (str. 4)

It is more logical that they would use those than lances.

[Taggerung]

Valid points, I actually like having ordnance fleets, but as I said some variety is all I am looking for. I really need to get a game in using these rule sets and give them a shot....for example this is the list I used last time I played...This was using the ork clanz list, but you get the idea...

Deathdeala, Warlord 2 rolls...shields (I like Gorbags better, but I will definitely have to retry the slamblasta out (I made a scratch build Battleship modeled with this guy in mind)

3x Terrorship (All with torpedoes in front) 1 Warboss 1 reroll, and shield upgrade

1 killkroozer, Warlord - Super Enginz

6 Ravagers + 1 Cobra (We misused the Widowmaker rules so I had a bit of an advantage here) and they all had looted torpedoes

3 Ram ships.

The fleet worked very well, but some of it came down to the new rules and how the widowmakers worked (The guy I played against had used them in his previous IN list and was using the +2 fleet wide, so when we played again I took cobras and did the same, we didn't realize that was not how it worked haha), and my shooting again did basically nothing and it came down to absurd amount of torpedoes I sent screaming into his ships turn after turn. I am definitely going to give the mass killkroozer list a shot, who knows...I made kill something before I get to them!

In the end it was a slaughter for the orks...only losing the ram ships and most of the ravagers (I blew up 2 of them myself to ensure more torpedoes hit one of his cruisers lol) and one of my cruisers crippled due to a IN hulk being lit on fire by an errant NC which then had its plasma drive overload and blast the crap out of my ships.

Hopefully you will give the Zappa Klass some thought, I think it would be a fun ship to play test. I may throw one in my next list how you have it on here and see how it preforms.

So far though i am super happy about BFG, and have been having more fun with it than normal 40k...the loose structure that allows for more fun and less rules lawyering is always good.

Again thanks for throwing these lists together Plaxor.

[Plaxor]

Welcome Taggerung. I probably will include the Zappa in some form.

Thing I like about BFG over 40k, is that in 40k too much of the fight is actually just listbuilding.... I mean... you need x number of meltaguns, y number of troops etc.

BFG doesn't have that problem, I mean... lists do matter to an extent, but not that much. The only issue with it is balance between ships and internally between fleets.

On a side note: Isn't taggerung a childrens book character?

[Phthisis]

I hate to be a downer, but Im against Orks having lances or becoming a shooty fleet in general.  First of all I believe it falls out of line with the fluff.  Orks don't use lasers because its precision technology and I don't believe they could maintain and operate it.  Orks are a hyper aggressive race and ram & board fits with their mentality.  Hang back and shoot seems bery unorky.
Furthermore, boosting the orks shooting game will unbalance the fleet.  Orks aren't having a tough time winning as it is, so upgraded shooting isnt necessary. Compared to IN,  already their ships have good armor, more hitpoints, faster movement, a much cheaper carrier with better offensive capabilities and options for torpedos that can allow them to rival IN torpedo spreads.  Orks have arguably the best escorts in the game with high front armor, high firepower and low cost.  Fighterbommers just got a big boost (i don't know why Taggerrung says they were nerfed) and are now more effective against high turret targets than any other bomber in the game.  Now they have the space marine bombardment cannon.  Why do they need lances or a boost to gunnery?
IN already has to push through an Ork fleet to win by leveraging their 6+ armor against Ork's alpha strike.  Throw in a bunch of forward lances that ignore  armor and Orks gain a big advantage in a scenario that is already stacked in their favor.  And what does chaos do?  Their only defence is to run abeam and watch their cap get swept aside by ork AC before the torpedo spread.  Lances don't negative shift for being abeam like bombardment cannons do.  Prow lances are designed to eliminate the only effective defense against the orks only effective strategy.  Also boosting firepower doesnt take away their ability to ram and board, so now they beat IN at everything and chaos at most things. 

If orks get lances and a firepower boost, can chaos have holofields?

[Phthisis]

Here are some alternate ideas for making the fleet work differently.  Im opposed do long range high strength lances on ork cruisers, but how about a proper zzap gun?  How about an option to replace heavy gunz with zzap guns across the board for a points upgrade?  Zzap guns are d3+1 instead of 4 heavy guns, have the same range but function like lances and add a blast marker when used. Im okay with that and it gives an alternative strategy to torp and board.
For more variation in the fleet, how about a fleet support kroozer with more weaponry on the side than the prow? This would encourage more manouvering without breaking the balance.   

[Taggerung]

Quite frankly...the Ork fleet isn't tough to beat, you guys just have made poor lists against them and I maximized the best tactic with them. That last game you played against me you pretty much decimated me with lances and long range batteries before I could get in range...Imperial Navy shouldn't have a hard time once Jon figures out how to play them. He keeps splitting them up and trying to our

Range 15cm is useless...not sure why you think it ever comes in to play (Maybe 2-3 weapons use this range per game)...same with boarding...I have boarded 1 ship in 7 games, it's quite difficult to get off when your fleet it slower and less able to maneuver, and then ramming? Including the Ram ships I have completed a total of 4 rams...again that is super difficult to get off

As for fluff? If this fleet were fluffy orks would have much better shields, probably 3 for each cruiser and 4 or more for the battleships...(Again considered to have best shield tech in the galaxy) and maybe they should have very few lances (even though most if not all of their big vehicles have some sort of potent energy weapons...see the stompa, battlewagon and gargant), and that the method to build such weapons is ingrained into every Mek's brain.

but D3+1 lances isn't terrifying and obviously comes at a cost...also will be in very little #'s so it's not a game breaking thing.

Orks do have a decent alpha strike but once that's over, generally the opponent has braced and I am lucky to get maybe 1 cruiser destroyed and another crippled. With my fleet having to turn...attempt to reload with shitty leadership then it comes down to if that strike hasn't broken the back of your fleet...then I lose.

Plaxor...yes it comes from a younger (not really a childs book) book, when I came up with my handle way back when...it was something I noticed on the book shelf and went with it...been using it for like 10 years now