List of flawed ships

[horizon]

What do you think Horizon?

You don't want to know.


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http://www.tacticalwargames.net/archive/rules/gothic/ddarkness.html

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Also: 4+ armour on Warden. Hmm. Compared to Iconoclast (25 per flawed lists iirc). 3wb vs 1l + 2wb. Eqv about + 2wb for Warden.
At 5pts less but restricted (Custodian---3/Emissary--2).

I'd rate them at 25pts with 4+ armour with current weaponry.

Custodian of course Grand Cruiser.

[Plaxor]

Problem with balancing it against the Iconoclast is that the warden has to be prow-on. Very dangerous for a 4+ escort. So I think either it should be 25 with 5+prow/4+, or 20 with 4+

[Sigoroth]

Also, if the Warden were 20 pts then its actual cost would be 25 pts, since you're paying 5 pts for the hook. So we'd have a the same armour, turns, hits and turrets for the same cost. The Warden would have +2WBe maximum firepower. However, to use that the Warden does have to go prow on and it is heavily restricted in the fleet in terms of maximum and practically speaking also in terms of minimums, since points are already invested in the hooks. And the Iconoclast is faster.

[horizon]

If the Warden stays abeam it has 1 lance. @30cm 1 lance = 3wb.
Thus equal to Iconoclast,  yet slower speed, yes.

[Plaxor]

Noticed one other issue:

The Emissary can upgrade a prow deflector for +10 points. This seems like an almost-always upgrade, as the vessel does have to be prow on to be effective, and essentially you are making it twice as resistant to wbs.

I'm thinking either a cost reduction on the Emissary of 10 points and making the prow deflector 20 points, or just including a prow deflector in the profile.

[Sigoroth]

If the Warden stays abeam it has 1 lance. @30cm 1 lance = 3wb.
Thus equal to Iconoclast,  yet slower speed, yes.

Yep, you could get the same firepower, stats and protection (abeam) while getting a slower and much much more restricted escort. Otherwise you have a slower, more fragile and restrictive escort with extra firepower.

[horizon]

So,
what if the Warden was unrestricted. How many would you take in the Tau fleet?

[Plaxor]

if it were unrestricted, cost 30 points (this includes the 5 points for grav-hooks) with 4+ armor....

I probably would include a few, but then again I'm an escort fan. However I wouldn't think of them as a good deal.

If it were 5+prows.... well then I would take quite a few.

Let's see... with 5+ armor they are almost like firestorms, which we put at 35 points. -5 for grav-hooks, and they are 30. However this is not a good build considering the model, and the comparison to the Orca.

With 4+ armor it resembles the model better, and the 'weaker' Kor'or'vesh fleet idea. However a -5 point reduction doesn't seem like enough for that much of a loss.... so 5+/4+ seems reasonable to cover that and make it comparable to the Orca (which most people would still take over a warden)

[Sigoroth]

The Warden shouldn't have 5+ armour anywhere. In fact, it's damn lucky that there's no such thing as 3+ armour ...

[Plaxor]

I was just thinking of it as a healthy compromise to make it 25 pts.... However you are right....

[RCgothic]

I see no reason why there shouldn't be 2+ or 3+ armour. I'd strongly consider it if I were producing stats for civilian vessels.

[Plaxor]

Actually I was thinking about the system ships the other day. They are ridiculously small, the largest about half the size of a cobra.

I was thinking that they could be turned into a special type of ordinance:

5pts spd.15  (resilient, so 4+ save)
They would act as fighters so that if any torpedoes or whatnot ran into them it would automatically be removed.
Also they would have 1 30cm weapons battery that would fire all around.

But yeah, 3+ armor could reasonably exist, it just doesn't have any real good place....

Oh, I posted the draft for Tau. Still need to resolve the warden though.

Putting it in terms of the Orca, it has 1 more FLR equivalent firepower. So with 4+ armor all around is quite a loss.
Perhaps dropping it to 20 and making its wbs at 1?

[Sigoroth]

Eh, the Warden doesn't "gain 1 LFR firepower" compared to the Orca, it gains 1 LR firepower. So same total and focusable. This miniscule bonus along with the slightly less "meh" bonus of the extra speed is simply not worth 5 pts. I believe that reducing the armour to 4+ is worth more than 5 pts. So call the difference -5 pts compared to the Orca, bringing total cost down from 30 pts to 25 pts, both with restrictions making their actual value more than their cost (like a CB).

Horizon asked how many I'd take if they were unrestricted at 25 pts. I'd say between 10 to 15% of my fleet cost. So 6-9 in a 1500 pt fleet. This is with them being overpowered compared to other escorts (since the restrictions and sunk costs are balancing factors). I probably wouldn't take any more because even being overpowered compared to other escorts they wouldn't be overpowered compared to cruisers.

[horizon]

Eh, the Warden doesn't "gain 1 LFR firepower" compared to the Orca, it gains 1 LR firepower. So same total and focusable. This miniscule bonus along with the slightly less "meh" bonus of the extra speed is simply not worth 5 pts. I believe that reducing the armour to 4+ is worth more than 5 pts. So call the difference -5 pts compared to the Orca, bringing total cost down from 30 pts to 25 pts, both with restrictions making their actual value more than their cost (like a CB).

Horizon asked how many I'd take if they were unrestricted at 25 pts. I'd say between 10 to 15% of my fleet cost. So 6-9 in a 1500 pt fleet. This is with them being overpowered compared to other escorts (since the restrictions and sunk costs are balancing factors). I probably wouldn't take any more because even being overpowered compared to other escorts they wouldn't be overpowered compared to cruisers.

Hmm, shouldn't an unrestricted Warden @ 4+ armour be slightly higher costed then a Iconoclast (=25pts)?

With restrictions:
1 Custodian = 3 Warden (must)
1 Emissary = 2 Warden (optional)

So if you took 2 Custodians you would've had your "6".

I wonder, what would your 1500pts fleet be for draft2010 Tau (eg like presented in draft, not the wishlist).

My fleet won't change, still same models.


edit : talking pure FW Tau here.

[Plaxor]

Posted the Eldar final document. On to fixing the traitor fleets document.