List of flawed ships

[Sigoroth]

One of the themes of the Necron fleet is that most of the ships and options in it are multiples 25 pts, something that the Shroud has stuffed up in the past (and since it's a pretty rubbish ship it seems way odd that it costs 155 instead of 150). Dropping the points and upping the save should be sufficient.

As for the Khopesh I always thought it was overpriced, and had long discussions with Retribution (its creator) on the topic. Given that the alternative (Scythes) will be going up in price to at least 300 pts then the Khopesh becomes a much better option, though I would still drop it down to 175 pts to keep it as a multiple of 25.

If it can compete well with a Scythe at that cost then it should be fine given how much the model costs. It takes a Cairn and a Shroud to convert one, which is a might price tag. Of course, if you already have a Cairn then it would be more cost effective to just use it as a guide and mock up a proxy using plasticard. But even so, it'll cost you a Shroud plus some plasti-card and some time converting.

[lastspartacus]

Increase the cost?  For going to 4+?

at 275 points, the Scythe, although with necron weapon bonuses, 4 weapon batteries and 6 torps less than a lunar class, it pays because it can focus fire.  with no shields, and a 100 point increase, its already paying a massive points premium even before the VP increase.

[Plaxor]

Necron WBs are almost 2x better than standard wbs, as they count all targets as closing. So the scythe has about equal firepower to the lunar overall. However it can focus all of its firepower to one side.

No shields in trade for always being braced, ignoring celestial phenomena, being 10cm faster, and having 6+ armor? It is all very solid stuff.

I was thinking 315-320 points (as two of the vessel were already considered better than tombships)
but Sigoroth has a fascination with multiples of 25...


As for the Khopesh, I think a better thing to do than undercost it, would be to make it slightly better and have it cost 200 points.

Then there would be the theme of 100 points between two hits (except on the 4 hitters....)

Also VPs aren't as bad in this document, and I assure you this necron fleet build will be competitive.


Sig, I made all the necron weapons work like nova cannons, (meaning you can't fire them under most special orders).

Portals now just confer extra teleport attacks, as I intend to remove the limitations on 'having more hits than your target' when I get around to writing up actual rules changes. HA seemed a bit too confusing on this. They're still halved when on BFI, CTNH, BR etc.

[lastspartacus]

I still dont see how you justify a points increase on a fleet that is already known for paying a huge points premium for what it gets.

[Plaxor]

I just put up v1.1 of the necrons. Fixed a lot of typos and rules issues.

I changed the Cartouche to have LFR on its lances, as this would make it much more defensive (it desperately needs this with such low hits) and resemble larger ships. Its points were increased to 150. (this was for list building issues)
Shroud at 150
Scythe at 300
Khopesh at 200, added 1 lance and upped turrets to two (to make it different from the cartouche), kinda made up an image of a conversion I think would be decent to represent the vessel, basically a shroud with its prow cut off and replaced with a dirge.

I was doing some list building stuff, and with everything costing multiples of 50 (except dirges, which you would have to take 5) it makes issues with the fleet commander if it took re-rolls.

I was originally considering increasing the cost of the fleet commander to 75 (as it is probably the best fleet commander ever!) but now I think I'm going to change it to 25, but you can buy re-rolls (basically forcing you to buy at least 1) and making the re-rolls 25 for 1, 75 for 2 and 125 for 3.

Seems reasonable, and fixed the odd point issue.

Also touched up the special rules, and the vp tables.

Tell me what you think?

[Plaxor]

I'm seriously considering changing the Cartouche to 125 points and reducing its lances by 1. As the vessel seems like it should be ridiculously cheap.

However this does make list building have minor issues, in that you would either have to take 2 or 3 dirges.... I guess that is fine. I think I'll do this for my next change:

Sepulcher at 75
+1 rr@25
+2 rr@75

Cartouche at -1 gauss particle whip, 125pts.

It'll give me a chance to fix spelling and layout mistakes. Otherwise, unless there are any complaints.... v1.2 will be the final for necrons!

[Plaxor]

With that roughly completed. (and eldar...ugh...just need to add in some minor things...) I can continue on to my next PDF to do a rough draft of.

Now, the HA intend to do a combined file for Rogue Traders/Tau/Minor Xenos. I'm wondering if I should do the same.

I do intend to use stuff from Xisor's Demiurg fleet design. The escorts are easy enough to make (I have a few) although I don't know how you would make the different capital ships....

I do have a hard copy of his V.4 Demiurg document.... but I was hoping I could find it online/a more recent version (isn't he on 5?)

Likely, I will make the Tau into their own document, and seperate them from their 'allies' so that only nicassar will be included in their document. The rest, I.E. Kroot and Demiurg will be in with the RT document.

[Sigoroth]

Well, leaving the Cartouche at 140 pts meant that 3 Cartouche and 12 Dirges (original maximum) comes out at an even 900 pts. 125 pts is fine though.

If you're going to push the FC to 75 pts you can add in a re-roll. Then +1 RR for 25, +2 for 75.

[Plaxor]

Well, leaving the Cartouche at 140 pts meant that 3 Cartouche and 12 Dirges (original maximum) comes out at an even 900 pts. 125 pts is fine though.

If you're going to push the FC to 75 pts you can add in a re-roll. Then +1 RR for 25, +2 for 75.

Exactly what I plan to do

[lastspartacus]

what are the proposed stats for these 2 new ships?

[Dark Depths]

I think the problem with the retribution is that it has a conflicted role.  Is it a long range gun platform or a line breaker?  Once we decide that then we can fix its stats appropiately.

[horizon]

Eh... Retribution has been done in thread pages ago:
18wb @ 45cm broadsides.


LS, Khopesh should be floating around the net. Old fanatic online article. Sig may have it.

[Plaxor]

Yeah, a lot of the stuff has been done already. I'm actually kind of working through detail work right now (which is mainly solving rules conundrums, and wtf is this here kinda stuff)

If you want to see a list of changes, you can look at the first post in this thread, it's not absolute, as some things might've changed that I didn't write down (such as the chaos mark redundancy thing.)

Or you can look at the files in the link in my signature, of which I have most races done. Pretty much all but tau. They are still a little rough draft, and have minor errors. The two closest to done are eldar and necrons. Orks I need to scrap and rebuild entirely, IN is done except some layout and wording issues, (oh and the Inquisition, who are like a tangled up power cord), Chaos has a lot of things that I forgot to write in.

Right now I'm making a preliminary RT/minor xenos pdf. However the trouble here is how I want to present the information and where I want to put it Ugh.... Reason being is that most of the stuff RT's can take can be taken by IN/Chaos, and the minor xenos are all presented in Tau.

Oh on that note, I do intend to add GCs to the RT document. (not bc's or BB's as the IN finds these far too valuable/dangerous to put in the hands of a RT).

This is because there is substantial fluff on RT's getting a hold of GCs, as the IN likes throwing these away more than any other ship.

[Plaxor]

Just posted the Rogue Trader/Minor Xenos/Demiurg fleet document. I want to rework the fleet lists a little, and a lot of things I need to put into the IN/Tau fleet that are mentioned here.

For the Demiurg, I used inspiration from Xisor's document, as I feel it has better representations of the stats on a Bastion, and the Escorts are fairly easy to make (the buttress is the rear half of a defense monitor, and the Rampart is made out of plasticard, from an article on port maw before it died) I have models of both, as I am a demiurg player, and I'll take pictures at some point and put them in there.

I took a little liberty in balancing the Kroot Warsphere, as the vessel is very useless. I reduced its cost by 20 points and made its weapons 45cm. This was to balance it against the Ork Rok, which is an 'alright' ship.

Don't think of it as a ship with 16 hits and 18wbs@45cm for 185 points. Mathematically with the way that criticals work and the fact that it is a defense it is more like having 8 hits. Also with its speed and the right shift for the above 45cm range it is more like 14wbs@30cm on a normal ship, and this is all it gets, it doesn't get two sides of wbs or torpedoes to compare.

The Xenos escort, a very crappy option, was made cost appropriate (35pts) for its base type, and it must buy an upgrade. 'The best that money can buy' is now a cost based system, which is what it was somewhat like in Nate's document. However some upgrades aren't worth as much as others.

Repair Tenders, Heavy Transports, Super-heavy transports, and other transports will be included in the 'defenses/transports' document when I get around to writing it, but they will essentially be identical to how they are presented officially.

[Plaxor]

Posted the final Necron document. (1.2)

Now on to do the final Eldar document (which just will comprise of some layout edits/revising ordinance stuffs)


Also tommorrow I will be building the initial Tau document. We have already done the Kor'vattra, I was wondering if anyone had ideas for the Kor'or'vesh fleet?

Like I think the Wardens should go to 4+ (maybe 5+prow/4+) and be reduced to 20 pts, and I know that there is a lot of demand to make the custodian a grand cruiser.

What do you think Horizon?