List of flawed ships

[BaronIveagh]

I'm removing the restriction on carrier SC's unless anyone gives protest. It doesn't seem like they need to be restricted in this way.

Also I've been reading over TH annihilators. It says they are fighters and bombers, but the way they are described as working is as just bombers. I imagine what they're meant to be is resilient bombers, like tau mantas.

Either that or they would essentially be resilient fighta-bombers.

Edit: I've also been looking at the 'powers of chaos' document. I don't know where the need for 'super' marks of chaos came from, having more abilities for ships which worship the gods.

Also the non-nurgle character ships seem unnecessary. I understood nurgle's reason for having one, as  Typhus had a fleet 1/3 the size of Abbadon at the onset of the 13th black crusade.

The thousand sons during the 13th were busy in the webway (as only Arhiman's group ever left), and khorne/slannesh ships don't seem different enough/like they would according to fluff. I mean aura of lust? What?

Anyways, as the Emasculator and Hecate are becoming legal, tell me how they should be balanced/where they should be placed (just in 13th I presume?)

Also Chaos Space Hulk? I imagine no one would be bothered if this disappeared.

Edit (2):

So here's some thoughts on the Fortress Monastery; for +125 points, it gains: SM rules (including better LD, resistance to H+R attacks etc.), 6wbs per quadrant, 3 thunderhawks per quadrant (which is more than half of the 4 that the ramilies gets.) 6+ armor. Boarding torpedoes, 2 extra teleport attacks (although these will be deleted with the terminator revision and unnecessary honor guard being deleted)

What it loses: 2 lances per quadrant.

Does not make sense to me. I think that the vessel would be perfectly fine in comparison if it had 5+ armor just like the Ramilies.

Personally I think that while as a SM ramilies, it's ok, this thing really shouldn't be called a fortress monastery.  It's too weak and too small.  Descriptions I've read make them all sound rather 'death star' ish and no two are the same.  Dorn's Phalanx and Sigismund's Eternal Crusader would be more like a space hulk sized ship.  The Tower of Angels is similar to a Ramilies, but described as much bigger. 

[Plaxor]

So I'm thinking for THA is that any ship with launch bays can be equipped with them for 5 (maybe 10) points. They count as resilient bombers.

Btw Baron

Several Chapters, most notably the Dark Angels and the Fire Hawks,
operate from mobile space fortresses. These gigantic craft contain
sufficient accommodation, workshops, training areas and dock
facilities for the entire Chapter and operate as a mobile base for
Chapter operations. While their defensive/offensive capabilities are
alleged to be equivalent to a Ramilies class star fort, they are not
only mobile but warp-capable.

Close enough, and besides, sms have such a varied fluff behind them and writers are always trying to make them look different anyways. These are decent rules if someone wants to use it in a campaign as a 'pirate base'

[Sigoroth]

I'm removing the restriction on carrier SC's unless anyone gives protest. It doesn't seem like they need to be restricted in this way.

I don't think that SMs should be an ordnance heavy list. They have as much now as I think their max should be. The restriction keeps the same maximum while allowing less.

Edit: I've also been looking at the 'powers of chaos' document. I don't know where the need for 'super' marks of chaos came from, having more abilities for ships which worship the gods.

Also the non-nurgle character ships seem unnecessary. I understood nurgle's reason for having one, as  Typhus had a fleet 1/3 the size of Abbadon at the onset of the 13th black crusade.

The thousand sons during the 13th were busy in the webway (as only Arhiman's group ever left), and khorne/slannesh ships don't seem different enough/like they would according to fluff. I mean aura of lust? What?

Bin them all. They're none of them representative. They're either based on the crappy Despoiler stats or the incorrect Slaughter picture or just brokenly represented (3 AC from 1 launch bay!?). Every single one is crap. Bin them all.

Anyways, as the Emasculator and Hecate are becoming legal, tell me how they should be balanced/where they should be placed (just in 13th I presume?)

They should be placed in the bin. Why on earth would the Hecate be based on a Hades hull? Why would they change the original (good) fluff? It makes so much more sense as an upgraded Devastation that these random changes boggle the mind.

As for the Emasculator, not only is this a crap name but it's a rather blah ship (and I have no idea where the stats for this "well playtested" ship came from). A heavy Slaughter would have been fine, but I really wanted a heavy Carnage. Instead we get a couple of naff ships. Yay.

Also Chaos Space Hulk? I imagine no one would be bothered if this disappeared.

Nope, really don't care about them at all.

Edit (2):

So here's some thoughts on the Fortress Monastery; for +125 points, it gains: SM rules (including better LD, resistance to H+R attacks etc.), 6wbs per quadrant, 3 thunderhawks per quadrant (which is more than half of the 4 that the ramilies gets.) 6+ armor. Boarding torpedoes, 2 extra teleport attacks (although these will be deleted with the terminator revision and unnecessary honor guard being deleted)

What it loses: 2 lances per quadrant.

Does not make sense to me. I think that the vessel would be perfectly fine in comparison if it had 5+ armor just like the Ramilies.

Those 2 lances are worth more than the 6WBs. The 3 TH swap for 4AC is much closer to a balanced swap than the 2 for 1 trade off we've seen in the past. The extra TP attacks are going as you say, but either way, they're terribly weak on an immobile station anyway. The SM rules (leadership, boarding bonus, H&R bonuses, boarding torps) is worth no more than 35 pts. So we're left with +90 pts for the gain of 6+ armour. If this were dropped to 5+ then the FM would simply be overpriced by 90 pts.

Personally I think that while as a SM ramilies, it's ok, this thing really shouldn't be called a fortress monastery.  It's too weak and too small.  Descriptions I've read make them all sound rather 'death star' ish and no two are the same.  Dorn's Phalanx and Sigismund's Eternal Crusader would be more like a space hulk sized ship.  The Tower of Angels is similar to a Ramilies, but described as much bigger. 

A Ramilies is larger than a space hulk. It has 48 hits, not 40. To destroy it you also have to circle it. You can't just hammer away from long range. An ABSF would have a fairly easy time of annihilating a Hulk, not so much a Ramilies.

[lastspartacus]

I actually really like the Chaos Space Hulk, my favorite things in the document.  And I'm building one now, so please dont take it away

Agreed, carrier SC's should be limited.

The new chaos ships are indeed kind of bland, a Slaughter heavy would be very easy to make, and everyone knows exactly what it should be except the HA.

[Plaxor]

@Sig,

I totally agree with you. Ugh, a lot of the HA documents feel like someones wishlist, chaos doesn't need tons of upgrades, and already has  a way to represent every 'mark'. The ships should at best be 'named' ships from the despoiler/desolator stat. Also weren't there only 3 despoilers built?

The same way I feel about orks, I don't get why there is such a need for 'marks'. Each clan just has preferences, and each one can be represented in the current ruleset, (ie. deathskulls taking looted torps).

The extra two chaos vessels, the Hecate and Emasculator. Well... the Emasculator is a lance Murder, Carnage style, it is pointless and would make people want to take Murders less (which the lance option was a large reason for taking them). The Hecate doesn't seem to have any serious point either, it feels like a 'just cause' ship.

The Chaos Space Hulk, I hate to say it, but I don't see chaos ever making use of one. Unlike Orks who would probably ride a moon around the galaxy if they could strap large enough rockets to it, chaos worshippers are human, and would likely remanufacture the hulked ships inside instead.

The vessel certainly exists in the fluff, like The Soul Drinkers Brokenback, but I think that this would be something you only play in fun games or on your own.

[horizon]

During the 13th crusade campaign it was stated Chaos build more vessels (eg Acheron), thus new Despoilers possible.

The shiity thing is Nate knows Chaos doesn't need anything new. Yes, Battleships in the line of the Terminus Est where promised as models and rules long time ago! So that'll be nice. Specific fleet lists with extra's, ok, nice if executed well (I did not pay a lot of attention to the PoC pt2 latest versions).

But Nate/HA are working from the old Andy Chambers wish list, or GW wish list I feel. In the end: if some daftness is needed to ensure BFG has a longer live and new plastic molds if the old ones die I won't complain.

We all house rules one or another thing already.

[Plaxor]

So I was posed by someone chapter specific rules for Space marines, I thought they were fairly decent, tell me what you guys think/

Ultimately Masters of the Fleet would have to buy 1 re-roll (effectively making them 75 points, but also making the two bonus re-rolls more expensive/limited, which is a big factor for any non-ultramarine fleet who wants re-rolls) but your ships would have some benefit depending on chapter;

Ultramarines & non-listed would receive the 1 re-roll, due to following the codex, and better command structure
Dark Angels would receive either +1 to determine turn order/deployment (or +1 strategy rating) due to their extreme paranoia.
Black Templars would receive THA's for free
Space Wolves would receive +1 to defend against boarding actions.
Blood Angels would receive a +1 to initiating boarding actions, but a -1 to defending against boarding actions.

Edit: Ordinance heavy Marines? I don't see any problem in it, not by fluff or anything.

Right now their max carrier capacity before our changes is 20 at 1500? Since the sm carrier variant is more expensive this changes to 17 Not the same value as before! However with the LBs being unlimited this would be at 27 max, closer to IN/Chaos maxes of 28.

With this it doesn't seem like its worth the extra wording It would be an interesting fleet to see, however I don't see anyone honestly doing it.

[commander]

So I was posed by someone chapter specific rules for Space marines, I thought they were fairly decent, tell me what you guys think/

Ultimately Masters of the Fleet would have to buy 1 re-roll (effectively making them 75 points, but also making the two bonus re-rolls more expensive/limited, which is a big factor for any non-ultramarine fleet who wants re-rolls) but your ships would have some benefit depending on chapter;

Ultramarines & non-listed would receive the 1 re-roll, due to following the codex, and better command structure
Dark Angels would receive either +1 to determine turn order/deployment (or +1 strategy rating) due to their extreme paranoia.
Black Templars would receive THA's for free
Space Wolves would receive +1 to defend against boarding actions.
Blood Angels would receive a +1 to boarding actions, but a -1 to defending against boarding actions.

So, BA would not be better than mere IN in defending against boarding You're joking, yes?

[Plaxor]

So, BA would not be better than mere IN in defending against boarding You're joking, yes?

It's something to lose. I know it doesn't make sense, but -1 leadership was what was actually told to me, and just a universal +1 to boarding actions (which makes more sense honestly) however that seems to suck

[Plaxor]

Hmmm... The Blood Angels could look like this:

+1 on boarding actions, but -1 to their randomly generated leadership (master of the fleets vessel stays at 10) but they also get the Re-roll.

Hopefully we can get these incorporated (as there is much demand from the Marine community to have chapter-spec stuff) and with the final arguments for space marine stuff I can finish the IN document.

And the Ork one I need to rework, I did a shoddy job anyways.

So for Admech, I'm going to cut and paste the stuff from the Mars document, sans the requirement for the archmagos for the BB. Also points revisions included for various vessels (I.E. -5 points for a tyrant). I thought there was something about alternate refit tables for Admech, do we want those?

Just found the thread here's what I think makes sense:

1. Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix- 5
2. Fleet Defense Turrets- 5
3. Advanced Engines- 15
4. Emergency energy reserves- 20
5. Repulsor Shielding- 15
6. Augmented Weapon Relays- 25

Should Inquisition Ships just be a Cut and paste as well? I always liked the idea of a blackship just being an ally-in ship to any IN fleet. However at Battleship status that makes it difficult.

P.S. My God! I just finished working through the rules for the Fortress monastery (combining in all the faq, as well as the Ramilies rules) it is 2.5 pages of special rules for one vessel.... ugh.

I'm on page 26 now, and SMs are done (other than the fleet lists, and perhaps minor edits)

I think that Admech should be 2 pages, and Inquisition should be 3-4. With fleet lists at 6-7 pages this document should be around 40 pages long, but it incorporates all the faq items. I might incorporate a faq page at the end for things that didn't seem to make it into the rules, or were just too complicated to explain there (like examples).

[lastspartacus]

I certainly like that admech idea

My only thought is that some of those refits are a tad too underpriced, but its been a few weeks since ive had time to playtest.

[Plaxor]

I certainly like that admech idea

My only thought is that some of those refits are a tad too underpriced, but its been a few weeks since ive had time to playtest.

I really think that the Admech should have upgrades instead of random. This would not only allow more experimental options, but would also make the list more competitive rather than the somewhat fun list it is now. (with a steep learning curve)

That said they likely should be 5 points overcosted as there should be some incentive to play normal IN over them, and of course every ship must buy an upgrade. So maybe add 5 points to all my listed values?

[lastspartacus]

You have seen this thread, right?

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/sg/forum/index.php?topic=1943.0

[Plaxor]

Yep. So basically I have all my answers already:

Archmagos Veneratus goes to 75 points.

The Commander can choose a second refit for his vessel free.

A lot simpler than the original documents rules....

I also think that the Endeavor/Endurance should just come with the lance and torps (possibly +10 points from our revision) as this makes sense considering the other ships in the Explorator fleet.

Anyone else thoughts?

Also Sigoroth posed an idea for an auto loader I imagine this would cost 30 points How do people feel about this?

Edit: Admech only use their supplots when playing in a game with subplots. Meaning pretty much only campaign games.

Oh and the Ark Mechanicus is overcosted when considering that it can't take any more refits, but is forced to have the fleet commander onboard. Meaning it wastes about 25 points. I was thinking either it strips both its' refits and all its' special rules then does upgrades normally or it is reduced by 25 points.



So here is what the fleet list will look like:


Fleet Commanders:
Archmagos Explorator Ld 8    50 points
Archmagor Veneratus Ld 9    75 points

May select one additional upgrade for their ship for no cost.

1RR 50
2RR 125

3 Cruisers to one battleship: (add one turret)
Emperor 385
Retribution 375
Oberon 375
Ark Mechanicus 390 (comes with both refits, and must have fleet commander onboard. Does not get his additional refit)

Cruisers (Up to 15): (cruisers contain dorsal str1@60cm lance LFR, and +1 turret, light cruisers add str 1 30cm lfr lance and 1 turret)
Tyrant, Gothic, Lunar 200pts
Dictator 230
Endeavor, Endurance: 125
Defiant 135

Note: no restrictions on Endurance and Defiants.

I think this system better represents the value of the upgrades, because  upgrades are more valuable on Battleships, so their added 'mechanicus' cost is higher, I.E. an emperor costs 385 but it only gets +1 turret for the extra points. However CLs on which they are the least valuable only have their 'mechanicus' cost at 15 points.

Then you must buy one upgrade for each capital ship:

Emergency Energy Reserves: 15 points
Advanced Engines: 15 points
Fleet Defense Turrets: 10 points
Gyro Stabilized Targeting Matrix: 10 points
Repulsor Shielding 15 points
Augmented Weapon Relays: 30 points (maybe 25)
Auto Reloaders: 30 points (maybe 25)

Escorts: (any number, space marine ones don't have space marine rules/all are subject to admech rules)
Nova 40 points
Gladius 35 points
Hunter 35 points
Cobra 30 points
Sword 35 points
Firestorm 35 points

Special Rules:
Admech ships are of course the pinnacle of human technology;  they roll an additional d6 when repairing critical damage.
Enemies may re-roll their dice when performing H&R attacks against admech vessels, as well as their boarding dice.
Admech ships may roll a leadership check to fire at hulks of their own vessels in an attempt to deny the enemy vps.
Rolls on different LD table (better than normal IN?) 1=7 2,3=8 4-6=9
Any Cruiser may upgrade the range of its weapons batteries to 45cm for +10 points, and/or a nova cannon for +20. They may also upgrade special torpedoes for +20 points. The retribution may upgrade special torpedoes for +30 points, or a nova cannon for +10.
Endeavor/Endurance/Defiants upgrade special torpedoes for +10 points. No ship may have Shark assault boats or boarding torpedoes. No ship may have the minelayer upgrade as they are too valuable to be used in this way.

There... easy enough! Next contestant


Edit: added in the fact that mechanicus cruisers can't use 'minelayer' on the defiant or Dictator, as this doesn't make sense for ADmech.

[Plaxor]

Almost done with the first version of the IN document, on page 32. Just have the fleet lists left.

Note; trudging through the Inquisition rules was like mixing concrete....

However these things are different from Nate's document; Grey Knight Strike cruisers have no limitations on their variants (prow torp and bombard swap) similar to Astartes vessels. Also I added into the rules the fact that Grey Knights are space marines and have their advantages/roll their leadership. I should probably tell Nate that he missed that....

Also Inquisitional Cruisers can be taken in space marines instead of a strike cruiser, not instead of a battlecruiser (as SMs can't take them).

Only the fleet list pages are left! Then I have to go back and revise everything, but at least I'll be able to post a PDF of the document for other people to see.