List of flawed ships

[lastspartacus]

Like I've said before, the Dominator messes up the other classes, I don't like it.  Its a 200 point ship.  But that goes beyond the scope of this thread.

Tyrant 190 with str6 batteries at 30cm and 6 at 45cm, with a 10 or 15 point option to take it all to 45, and Dom given a 180 torp option.  all good?

[horizon]

No LS, it doesn't mess up the other classes. It is the only class which must take the NC. Therefor I am against 12wb on the Tyrant. Tyrant str10 @ 45cm for 190 is fine. I agree.
The Dominator has the NC must in a torp love fleet. And to balance the in potential : WEAK, NEVER HITTING NC it has best broadside at 30cm.

Thus: I am against str12 on the Tyrant.

Avenger: I forgot you lot agreed on str20 batteries, In that case I want it at 200pts at least.

[lastspartacus]

Lol Horizon, I can't figure out if you have just had abysmal NC luck, or you secretly rock with it and want it to stay as is

Be reasonable, a bit over 1/3 percentage of hits isn't never hitting, warhammer players pay out big points for 5+ ward saves with worse odds

[RCgothic]

If the Nova Cannon was free, I would still prefer torpedoes. If the Tyrant gets FP12, I won't ever take a Dominator.

[horizon]

No, it isn't aboud bad luck at all with the NC.
I made hits, I received hits and I BFI'd due psychology in cases, forced it as well.
The Dominator is not good because of the NC, it is good because of its weapon batteries.

But the NC isn't that mega uber powerful weapon you and others call it. It is what it is. Unreliable and in an incident a good shot. I did not say it never hits but you can play eight turns and never make a shot hit. In scenarios the NC is nigh on useless when you are a defender (or attacker).

You overrate it. A massed torp fleet is just way more accurate and deadly.



Your latest suggestion made the NC pretty stronger in the 0-90cm range by the way. (Not that I like that range). Call that a lol!

[lastspartacus]

And you can go 8 turns with 24 hits, Horizon.  Talking about about possibilities is pointless, only averages prevail.

[horizon]

The Chance on all misses is much higher then maximum hits.

And per average the NC cuts down on the lowside in damage dealing.

[RCgothic]

Chance of 8 misses: 3.9%
Chance of 8 Direct hits rolling maximum damage: 0.000000009%

[Plaxor]

Don't think fp12 has any chance of passing. However we can make the 30/45cm one cheap. We can make it 175 base and 190 for the range upgraded.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

What's the point of having 30/45 combo? The users will always upgrade it to full 45 cm anyway.

[Plaxor]

I know, it's just making the ships perfect in this manner wasn't something I was intending. At best the Tyrant would just be a very cheap base cost cruiser for the IN. You lose out on the firepower, but you lose the nova cannon in exchange for torps, and gain a bit of range that could possibly be useful.

I think making the base cost 175 is a decent thing to do, people would buy it for that much, simply wanting a cheap cruiser. With a 15 point upgrade to 45cm it will keep that cost the same (190 for all 45cm) and make the upgrade less appealing.

[Plaxor]

Also if we're revising costs for the IN upgraded cruisers, how does everyone feel about the Dominators reduced price for longer range? I think it could see another 5 points in cost reduction.

[commander]

Well, I still would take a Lunar over a Tyrant 45/30 combo.

[Sigoroth]

If the Nova Cannon was free, I would still prefer torpedoes. If the Tyrant gets FP12, I won't ever take a Dominator.

And shouldn't you have that option?

Goal:

Fix Tyrant, give all IN lists a 12WB broadside Lunar/Gothic clone at 180 pts.

Current state of play:

Tyrant - overpriced, undergunned, rubbish ship, rarely taken.

Dominator - taken a lot for broadside armament by those that prefer WBs, taken also for cheap NC by those that prefer it, limited fleet list availability.

Best solution:

Tyrant converted to Lunar/Gothic clone, options for range and NC remain.

Upsides:

- IN players get WB base-cruiser option, allowing them to take WBs without being accused of munchkinism for the NC spam.
- Tyrant becomes more used.
- Current Tyrant users pay 5 pts less for what they already took.
- Very little model changes required
- Dominator becomes as rare as fluff dictates
- Munchkins easy to spot ... they still take all Doms

Downsides:

- Dominator gets used less
- Fluff needs minor adjustment to suggest range is an upgrade

Note, the first downside is also an upside. So at worst this cancels out, leaving a fluff tweak and the rest upsides. Now let's look at an alternative.

Alternative solution:

Make Tyrant 10WB@45cm base for 190 pts, leave NC option. Give Dominator torps instead of NC for 180 pts, include NC option for 20 pts, include in all lists.

Upsides:

- IN players get WB base-cruiser option, allowing them to take WBs without being accused of munchkinism for the NC spam.
- Tyrant/Dom maintain their distinction.
- Current Tyrant users pay 5 pts less for what they already took.
- Very little model changes required

Downsides:

- More profile/list changes than other solution.
- Doms much much more common than Tyrants, Tyrants taken even less with a torp Dom option.
- Fluff needs major adjustment to account for common Doms.
- Gothic list players lose the cheap NC option they had over other lists.


So we get what we want either which way, but the second alternative takes more effort, more changes, lines up less with fluff and makes the Tyrant even less used due to better competition. The fact is that most IN players find the range "upgrade" a sub-optimal option at best. IN line cruisers don't need the range, paying for it as well as losing firepower at the same time is generally a bad idea. Making it default is second in crapness only to giving it half/half ranges.

The first alternative makes the staple 3 line cruisers Lunar/Gothic/Tyrant. Dictator is (and always was) the line support ship. On top of this the Gothic list has the Dominator artillery ship. Other lists can get artillery ships too, albeit for greater cost. All lists have the capability of taking a range upgraded Tyrant if they wish.

Less changes, better fluff adherence, better result.

[horizon]

But but but Sigoroth....

So you go by the doctrine that the IN would design:
All WB (Tyrant)
All Lance (Gothic)
Mix (Lunar)

for gunnery/line cruisers?

Why didn't they do it in the past then? The Murder designs etc?

I'm not arguing the idea, just thinking out loud.