List of flawed ships

[Plaxor]

Because the fluff can just go with the 45 cm Tyrant. Why bother splitting it since one will obviously get the full upgrade anyway? FP4@45 cm? Not going to do much. Even against Eldar.

No I'm saying make it total fp12, but have 4 of them be at 45cm. It sucks and is practically worthless, but it is a quirk about the ship.

[BaronIveagh]

Please vote for the things where your name is listed.

Chaos:
Warmasters: 50 point ld8 option: Horizon,Baron, commander
Make normal Ld9 Horizon, Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, commander
largest class instead of most expensive: Horizon, Sigoroth, Baron

No Opinion.  
Yes
Yes

IN:
Avenger cost (give a value, current proposed, 190, 210, 200): Sigoroth, Horizon, Baron, Lastspartacus
Tyrant: Make wbs str12: Horizon, Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Comander, Lastspartacus

210
Sure, if range is 45cm

Astartes:
Add torp version at str. 3 (trade for lbs): Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Lastspartacus, Commander
add carrier version for 15 points: Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Commander, Lastspartacus
Add option to swap lbs with str 3 F bombard: Admiral D Artagnan, RCgothic, Commander, Lastspartacus
Sedito Oprimere: Make resemble BB with 3 lb: Horizon, Admiral D, Rcgothic, Commander, Lastspartacus
Battlebarge: +1 turret/shield: Commander
Strike Cruiser: Sheilds at 2, launch bay at 1: Commander, Lastspartacus
Rapid strike vessels: Delete: Admiral D Artagnan, Commander, Lastspartacus
Gladius: Reduce by 5 points: Horizon, Commander, Lastspartacus, Admiral D
Nova: Reduce by 5 points: Horizon, Commander, Lastspartacus, Admiral D

Yes if the shield/LB swap is dropped
Yes
Yes if the sheild/LB swap is dropped
No
Already voted
Already voted
No to deleting RS ships.
Yes to point reduction



Sorry about any confusion, was reading soemthing else and voting at the same time.

[Plaxor]

Jeez Baron! you're killin me.

[BaronIveagh]

Jeez Baron! you're killin me.

Sorry, I'm doing six different things at once.  Then I actually thought about the Tyrant and remembered it's long range fluff. 

[commander]

Please vote for the things where your name is listed.

Chaos:
Warmasters: 50 point ld8 option: Horizon,Baron, commander
Make normal Ld9 Horizon, Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, commander

==> OK; can live with that.

largest class instead of most expensive: Horizon, Sigoroth, Baron

IN:
Avenger cost (give a value, current proposed, 190, 210, 200): Sigoroth, Horizon, Baron, Lastspartacus
Tyrant: Make wbs str12: Horizon, Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Comander, Lastspartacus

==> Yes, Tyrant as base FP12 cruiser

Astartes:
Add torp version at str. 3 (trade for lbs): Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Lastspartacus, Commander
add carrier version for 15 points: Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Commander, Lastspartacus
Add option to swap lbs with str 3 F bombard: Admiral D Artagnan, RCgothic, Commander, Lastspartacus

==> I'm OK with these.

Sedito Oprimere: Make resemble BB with 3 lb: Horizon, Admiral D, Rcgothic, Commander, Lastspartacus

==> Already got deadly armament. So no.

Battlebarge: +1 turret/shield: Commander
Strike Cruiser: Sheilds at 2, launch bay at 1: Commander, Lastspartacus

==> OK for both.

Rapid strike vessels: Delete: Admiral D Artagnan, Commander, Lastspartacus

==> As these are also covered by the SM escorts, I have no objection towards their removal

Gladius: Reduce by 5 points: Horizon, Commander, Lastspartacus, Admiral D
Nova: Reduce by 5 points: Horizon, Commander, Lastspartacus, Admiral D

==> Yes to both.

[Plaxor]

That nails the coffin shut for the strike cruiser lb/shield conundrum. Great little cruiser for 145 points.... As well as the BB having 4 shields/turrets. I know that there was demand for a cost increase, so I've set this at +15 points (or 440), any objections?

Oh, sorry Baron, I feel for you, and if I were thinking only from an Ork standpoint then.... but this is a group thing and they had a unified idea of what they wanted with numerical reasoning behind it.

Also the avenger, we had 4 votes for 190 and 3 votes for 210. I can't remember who voted what, but I kinda made the executive decision and made a compromise. Which held true with my maths. This vessel will be playtested at this value, and if it still sucks... well then we can talk about it more.

Also the RSV got deleted. Thoughts on the Gladius and Nova, well they are decent, but not great, they still die like Swords.

Anyways an analysis of the two:
Gladius: it has sm rules (basically slightly better resistance to ABs, and slightly higher Ld), and +5cm speed  for 10 points on the sword... I think that a 5 point reduction is justifiable.
Nova: For +15 points on the Firestorm, it gets FLR on it's lance, and +10 cm speed as well as sm rules, it loses however a turret. This is kinda a big deal in the escort world. So a 5 point deduction makes sense.

One of the goals of this project is to make escorts as appealing as is reasonable. So many fleets go without them (about half of IN fleets from previous research), but all the fluff describes them as being ubiquitous. This wasn't just due to the AB thing, a cruiser can take hits and not lose firepower, has longer range, more total firepower, although this may not be situated in the optimal arc etc.

[BaronIveagh]

Oh well, it's not official anyway.  It's not like anything I might sponsor around here would use it anyway.

[Plaxor]

Or if you did you could just ignore the space marine stuff.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Because the fluff can just go with the 45 cm Tyrant. Why bother splitting it since one will obviously get the full upgrade anyway? FP4@45 cm? Not going to do much. Even against Eldar.

No I'm saying make it total fp12, but have 4 of them be at 45cm. It sucks and is practically worthless, but it is a quirk about the ship.

Exactly. It IS worthless because it's not going to do much. So people will upgrade it to the 45 cm package anyway. So get rid of the split WB broadside range.

[Sigoroth]

Why not make it 12 and have 4wbs at 45cm? it keeps the flavor, and we can return it's cost to 185 even.

We need a Gothic/Lunar clone with 12WB@30cmL+R for 180 pts to give people the option. Paying 5 pts extra for no extra gain is rubbish. People will just keep taking the Dom instead. Also, the fluff about the long ranged Tyrants can simply be applied to the ranged variant. Instead of N'dai's ship design being built from the ground up the salient points (longer ranged guns) were merely co-opted onto some Tyrants. Done.

Please vote for the things where your name is listed.

Chaos:
Warmasters: 50 point ld8 option: Horizon,Baron, commander
Make normal Ld9 Horizon, Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, commander
largest class instead of most expensive: Horizon, Sigoroth, Baron ~~Eh, I'd say either/or. I could see why a Warmaster would want to move his flag to a Styx if his previous flag was, for example, an Executor, despite their vanities, insecurities, powertrips, etc.~~

IN:
Avenger cost (give a value, current proposed, 190, 210, 200): Sigoroth, Horizon, Baron, Lastspartacus ~~200 pts at fp 20, 30cm range~~
Tyrant: Make wbs str12: Horizon, Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Comander, Lastspartacus

Astartes:
Add torp version at str. 3 (trade for lbs): Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Lastspartacus, Commander
add carrier version for 15 points: Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Commander, Lastspartacus
Add option to swap lbs with str 3 F bombard: Admiral D Artagnan, RCgothic, Commander, Lastspartacus
Sedito Oprimere: Make resemble BB with 3 lb: Horizon, Admiral D, Rcgothic, Commander, Lastspartacus
Battlebarge: +1 turret/shield: Commander
Strike Cruiser: Sheilds at 2, launch bay at 1: Commander, Lastspartacus
Rapid strike vessels: Delete: Admiral D Artagnan, Commander, Lastspartacus
Gladius: Reduce by 5 points: Horizon, Commander, Lastspartacus, Admiral D
Nova: Reduce by 5 points: Horizon, Commander, Lastspartacus, Admiral D

[RCgothic]

Please vote for the things where your name is listed.


Tyrant: Make wbs str12: Horizon, Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Comander, Lastspartacus

I'm not sure how I feel about this - it would pretty much bury the Dominator.

let's:
FP12@30cm.
Delete Nova Cannon option. You have to put some clear space between the Dominator and the Tyrant other than a cheap Nova Cannon upgrade.
Upgrade option to be FP10@45cm for 10pts.

Astartes:
Add option to swap lbs with str 3 F bombard: Admiral D Artagnan, RCgothic, Commander, Lastspartacus

Ok, why not.

Sedito Oprimere: Make resemble BB with 3 lb: Horizon, Admiral D, Rcgothic, Commander, Lastspartacus

Nope.

Also, Battle Barge: I would make it +25pts for +1 shield and turret.

[lastspartacus]

For the Tyrant, 45cm or no go.  Otherwise the Dominator is just a Tyrant with a nova upgrade.  Tyrant with solid 45cm option, and just allow -10 points to tradeout nova for torps on the Dom.

[commander]

That would be a Tyrant with FP10? or FP12? R45 and torps at 190 points?
And for 180 points a Dominator with Torps?

I can live with that (FP12 R45, that is).

[lastspartacus]

190 and fp10 at 45 i meant.  and a 180 dominator torp variant sounds perfect.

[Sigoroth]

I'm not sure how I feel about this - it would pretty much bury the Dominator.

And resurrect the Tyrant. The Tyrant is a dead ship now. Given that the Dom is eliminated from subsequent IN lists one would expect it to be rarer than the Tyrant, which is in every list, "range premium" or no.

let's:
FP12@30cm.
Delete Nova Cannon option. You have to put some clear space between the Dominator and the Tyrant other than a cheap Nova Cannon upgrade.
Upgrade option to be FP10@45cm for 10pts.

Well, having to pay more than the Dom does already puts space between the two. Essentially you can have either the NC for 10 pts, range for 10 pts or both for 30 pts.

Also, some people take range and NC upgraded Tyrants. There's no need to put their noses out.

The bonus of this change is that players get full access to a 12WB broadside torp boat no matter which list they use. A torp variant Dom doesn't work for Armageddon, Bastion and AdMech lists. Doms would become as rare as they're supposed to and you will be able to more easily spot munchkins (ie, those who retain large Dom fleets).