List of flawed ships

[Sigoroth]

If all the ork ships costs are added together once. Then the cost difference in my document is only 2%. However the 1500 point ork fleet I ran the other day would've cost 6% less, as the cost disparities are presented the most in the escorts. KK's and TS aren't reduced in cost for good reason. If the TS is reduced then it would be allowed in cruiser clash missions. If the KK is reduced it would be too comparable to CLs, and the strike cruiser.

I advocate a stronger reduction in cost personally, and don't see a need for an Ork CL. A comparable cost between a 1 shield, 1 turret, slow, ponderous gunship with predominantly 15cm range and a weak tail to that of a fast, agile, well shielded and armoured attack cruiser with ordnance, armour ignoring weaponry, moderate range and better anti-AC defence seems fine to me.

Also the 6+ prow idea got murdered along with all the dorsal options on gcs.

Oh really? I wonder why. I'll have to go back and have a look.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Dear Admiral,

   Vote on stuff dammit!

-Plaxor.

P.S. Horizon did, his comment was, "Whatever Sigoroth says about marines is true."

Errr what are we voting on now? I have been making my preferences known.

[Plaxor]

Errr what are we voting on now? I have been making my preferences known.

Sorry must've not caught it.

Chaos:
Iconoclast: Reduce by 5pts
Warmasters: add 50 point ld8 option, Make normal Ld9, make it so the warmaster has to go on the highest class as opposed to most expensive

IN:
Avenger: Cost 190 or 210.

Astartes:
Strike cruiser:
Add torp version at str. 3
add carrier version for 15 points
Add option to swap lbs with str 3 F bombard
SO: Make resemble BB with 3 lb
Battlebarge: +1 turret/shield
Strike Cruiser: Sheilds at 2, launch bay at 1

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Sorry must've not caught it.

Chaos:
Iconoclast: Reduce by 5pts

Hmmm. I guess 25 pts is ok.

Warmasters: add 50 point ld8 option, Make normal Ld9, make it so the warmaster has to go on the highest class as opposed to most expensive

Does Chaos really need it? I think no to this one. This is for the 13th Crusade I assume? The highest class is ok but better to add the clarification that cruiser=1...battleship=4 or something.

IN:
Avenger: Cost 190 or 210.

Using what stats? The original? I wouldn't pay anything over 180.

Astartes:
Strike cruiser:
Add torp version at str. 3

At the expense of what? Prow BC or LB?

add carrier version for 15 points

The Assault Cruiser has been floating around already. Don't remember the exact cost.

Add option to swap lbs with str 3 F bombard

Am good with this.

SO: Make resemble BB with 3 lb

Huh?

Battlebarge: +1 turret/shield
Strike Cruiser: Sheilds at 2, launch bay at 1

Definitely for this. The BB will have to cost more.

[RCgothic]

IN:
Avenger: Cost 190 or 210.

Using what stats? The original? I wouldn't pay anything over 180.

That would be the new FP20 stats. I don't think it should cost less than a Dictator, so 210pts, even if that leaves it slightly overcosted. For that price it doesn't even have to line break to be competitive, it can sidle up to the enemy obliquely and still outgun a Dominator nearly 2-1 and by more survivable in an abeam profile. If the enemy does cross its prow with one or two ships to make it more vulnerable, that just leaves them open to FP40 return fire. Even if the Avenger Braces it hasn't lost anything, kicking out FP20. Alternatively, it can try and sneak into the enemy lines behind a squadron of Lunars/Dominators - 210 is fine for the new profile.

As for the BB: I agree it should get the shields/turret, but I would also increase the price. How much by is the question. 15-25pts? 25 would make it a round 450.

[RCgothic]

We should probably mention the Nova, Hunter and Gladius, even if we agree they should remain unchanged.

Nova: for +15pts over the Firestorm you get +10cm speed, F/L/R Lance (the lack of which being the main flaw of the firestorm), and Space Marine Rules. In addition, it's meant to be difficult for SMs to get lances. I think that probably doesn't need to change, even though it's the most expensive Imperial escort. Possibly 5pt reduction to 45pts?

Gladius: for +10pts over the Sword, you get +5cm speed and Space Marine rules. Worth the whole 10pts? Perhaps 5pt reduction to 40pts?

Hunter: for +10pts over the Cobra, you get 5cm speed, 5+ armour, and Space marine Rules. I think that's probably worth 10pts, so no change.

[Sigoroth]

We should probably mention the Nova, Hunter and Gladius, even if we agree they should remain unchanged.

Nova: for +15pts over the Firestorm you get +10cm speed, F/L/R Lance (the lack of which being the main flaw of the firestorm), and Space Marine Rules. In addition, it's meant to be difficult for SMs to get lances. I think that probably doesn't need to change, even though it's the most expensive Imperial escort. Possibly 5pt reduction to 45pts?

Gladius: for +10pts over the Sword, you get +5cm speed and Space Marine rules. Worth the whole 10pts? Perhaps 5pt reduction to 40pts?

Hunter: for +10pts over the Cobra, you get 5cm speed, 5+ armour, and Space marine Rules. I think that's probably worth 10pts, so no change.

The Gladius and Nova are overpriced. The reason they've never been dropped in price is because of the stupid RSV IN come SM ships. When SMs got their own escorts these temporary place holders should have been turfed.

[RCgothic]

So Gladius and Nova -5pts, RSV escorts delete? They can still be taken as part of the Armageddon fleet list, but without the SM rules.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

That would be the new FP20 stats. I don't think it should cost less than a Dictator, so 210pts, even if that leaves it slightly overcosted. For that price it doesn't even have to line break to be competitive, it can sidle up to the enemy obliquely and still outgun a Dominator nearly 2-1 and by more survivable in an abeam profile. If the enemy does cross its prow with one or two ships to make it more vulnerable, that just leaves them open to FP40 return fire. Even if the Avenger Braces it hasn't lost anything, kicking out FP20. Alternatively, it can try and sneak into the enemy lines behind a squadron of Lunars/Dominators - 210 is fine for the new profile.

At FP20 per broadside, it comes out at 179 points. At best I would agree to 190 but why should I pay for anything above 185? While I myself do not think a ship should cost cheaper than the Dictator but the problem is I don't want to be overpaying for a ship. 210 vs 180 points is an escort. Note that which it can outgun a Dominator, it IS a Grand Cruiser so it SHOULD be able to outgun it anyway.

[RCgothic]

Compare 3 Avengers (210) with 2 Retributions (355).


+1 Shield
+6 Hits
+6WBe to One Side
+30WBe Both Sides
+3 WBe Total

-6+ Prow
-1Turret
-30cm range only
-80pts

That's a substantial outgunning and hit increase for a substantial discount. Call it 190 and you can get a Dauntless and a Cobra as well as the 3 Avengers. Whilst Smotherman is good for getting a ballpark figure, it isn't the be-all and end-all, and greater balance considerations have to be accounted for.

With FP20 it should stay at 210. I would take it for that.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I wouldn't. Sorry but I know Smotherman is not the end all be all but with that big a difference, nope, I wouldn't pay for it. Smotherman does get a lot of the existing ships within 10 points of the listed cost so I think it is a good reference to use initially, then figure out if changes are needed later on after playtesting.

Comparing ships in multiples is also not the end all be all. It can be a reference but not justification. I can live with a 10 point disparity, hence accepting 190 but anything over 10 point difference, I would not agree to.

The problem is there is no justification for the additional 20 point difference other than the ship should not cost less than a Dictator. Well, sorry, not good enough for me.

[horizon]

I agree, if the RSV vessels would be scrapped in the Marine list the Marine escorts would have a point (aside of the excellent Hunter).

[Plaxor]

So I've adopted the math that I've been doing for KKs into the Avenger vs. Retribution:

Fp needed to cause 1 internal: 64%
Fp needed to destroy outright: 65.5%
Fp: 71%% (I know, but 45cm batteries are worth about 25% more than 30cm ones. Doesn't consider torpedoes.)
Resistance to ordinance: 51% (heavy armor and that single extra turret really come into play here)

Total average: 62.8% or 222 points. Hrmmmm... Food for thought anyways.

Lets add in the torpedoes, we can assume each is worth 1.8 wbs (from the gunnery chart, subtracting from the total for assumed turret kills) so the total is now 53.7% for firepower so total average is 58.5% or 207 points (if the retribution costs 355)

This doesn't account for lfr lances.

However, if we take the torp upgrade and then have a better balance of judgement on fp, and the cost comes out to 225 for that. (so 200-205 base)

I know that the smotherman calculates this out to 180, but the smotherman often has trouble with vessels that are far from the current standard designs. Which I think this version of the avenger is, and it feels like this vessel should cost around 200-210, I said 190 as a compromise in my mind between these values and the smotherman formula. This vessel needs playtest.

[lastspartacus]

Adding a few cents worth.  Idolator at 40?  I never found them amazing at 45, but not overpriced.

Is everyone really happy with a 180 tyrant? Id rather 190 and some flavor. all guns at 45cm or str12 batteries and half at 45?

[Plaxor]

People have been liking that for some reason. The idea is that it needs to be different from the dominator to keep people from thinking, 'Oh, I don't want a nova cannon, so I'll just buy a tyrant, it has longer range on it's wbs anyway'.

The downgraded profile sucks, but it's one of those fluff options.