September 11, 2024, 10:17:15 PM

Author Topic: List of flawed ships  (Read 289935 times)

Offline RCgothic

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 795
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #225 on: December 07, 2010, 10:29:02 AM »
You would cram the equivalent of a S6 Torps AND a 6+ prow onto a Light Cruiser Prow, and you don't think that's inelegant? The LC Prow is patently smaller than a standard Cruiser, yet would be packed the same armament and protection.

The AdMech don't have the option to give the Defiant a Dorsal lance because:
A: The designers don't recognise that the Broadside hardpoints are under-utilised.
B: If a Defiant traded half its prow armament for a lance like the End/End, that would just be a lance for a lance, ie pointless.

What I find obvious is that there's a Dorsal Hardpoint just waiting to be used. It doesn't need to trade anything in, because the space is already there.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 10:30:33 AM by RCgothic »

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1037
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #226 on: December 07, 2010, 10:33:16 AM »
You would cram the equivalent of a S6 Torps AND a 6+ prow onto a Light Cruiser Prow, and you don't think that's inelegant? The LC Prow is patently smaller than a standard Cruiser, yet would be packed the same armament and protection.

And why not? It's Str 2 lances and Str 2 torps. If you do not figure in equivalents in what is blatantly a space consideration, it would fit.

The AdMech don't have the option to give the Defiant a Dorsal lance because:
A: They don't recognise that the Broadside hardpoints are under-utilised
B: If a Defiant traded half its prow armament for a lance, that would just be a lance for a lance.

What I find obvious is that there's a Dorsal Hardpoint just waiting to be used. It doesn't need to trade anything in, because the space is already there.

In the end, you point out the AM specifications, then you have to live with the good and the bad. Point still is the Defiant does not have the dorsal option, even in an AM list. And I don't think the Defiant should trade half of its prow armament to get the dorsal option. You keep mentioning space and it's quite obvious the Defiant would have more space to spare compared to the Endeavor and Endurance.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 10:36:13 AM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »

Offline RCgothic

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 795
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #227 on: December 07, 2010, 10:46:34 AM »
You have to figure in space equivalents - A single point of Lance strength canonically takes up three times larger than a single point of WB strength. That's why the Apoc is getting FP9 WBs instead of S3 Lances, and the Lunar and Endurance only get S2 Lances for their FP6 WB decks.

Yes, on the Current Defiant, I do believe it has the space to add an additional lance. - The original designers didn't agree there was space, which is why it doesn't, but we're unanimous that they're wrong - which is why we're giving it more weaponry.

But instead of having S3 Lances, we've decided on a load out of S2 Lances and S2 Torps. The space for this is in the Dorsal Position, but because torps need to be launched from the prow, it's the lances that have to move.

As I've said, I'll go along with Plaxor's proposal, because the profile is functionally the same and I believe the Defiant needs that functionality, but I really do think cramming a cruiser-armament onto a prow 2/3rds the size is a really really ugly thing to do.

As I've said, I'll go along with Plaxor's proposal, because the profile is functionally the same and I believe the Defiant needs that functionality, but I really do think cramming a cruiser-armament onto a prow 2/3rds the size is a really really ugly thing to do when there's any alternative, and there IS an alternative.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 10:54:11 AM by RCgothic »

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1037
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #228 on: December 07, 2010, 10:56:36 AM »
You have to figure in space equivalents - A single point of Lance strength canonically takes up three times larger than a single point of WB strength. That's why the Apoc is getting FP9 WBs instead of S3 Lances, and the Lunar and Endurance only get S2 Lances for their FP6 WB decks.

Equivalent strength is not the same as physical dimensions. An M14 Battle Rifle is not much longer than an M16 even though it has more stopping power.

Yes, on the Current Defiant, I do believe it has the space to add an additional lance. - The original designers didn't agree there was space, which is why it doesn't, but we're unanimous that they're wrong - which is why we're giving it more weaponry.

You're assuming they didn't agree. We don't really know their exact reasoning.

But instead of having S3 Lances, we've decided on a load out of S2 Lances and S2 Torps. The space for this is in the Dorsal Position, but because torps need to be launched from the prow, it's the lances that have to move.

Again you are missing the point of the dorsal in the AM equivalent of the Endeavor and Endurance. Those two have to sacrifice their torps in order to get the lance? How then can the Defiant get its torps at the same time getting a dorsal lance? When in your insistence of equivalents, if we reduce the prow lance to Str 1, it would still be the equivalent of FP3 WBs? Which if I remember my math is still 1 FP more than what the Endeavor and Endurance has. Just because they replaced the broadsides with launch bays does not mean it's not taking up space. Launch Bays means attack craft, ordnance for the attack craft, crews and their equipment, fuel for the attack craft and spares for the attack craft, among other things.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 10:59:53 AM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »

Offline RCgothic

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 795
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #229 on: December 07, 2010, 11:37:33 AM »

Equivalent strength is not the same as physical dimensions. An M14 Battle Rifle is not much longer than an M16 even though it has more stopping power.

Not in this case. A Lance takes up the equivalent space of 3WBs, otherwise a Lunar would have S6 Lance Decks. Ships carry weaponry sized to their hardpoints.


You're assuming they didn't agree. We don't really know their exact reasoning.

You're nitpicking, Their end judgement was different from ours - the Defiant has the space for additional weaponry because its LBs are undersized.


Again you are missing the point of the dorsal in the AM equivalent of the Endeavor and Endurance. Those two have to sacrifice their torps in order to get the lance? How then can the Defiant get its torps at the same time getting a dorsal lance?

Because unlike the Endeavour and Endurance, its broadside HBs are undersized - it isn't getting the dorsal lance for nothing, it has already made the sacrifice of half its braodside hardpoints. Neither is it "At the same time getting a dorsal lance" it's getting one lance on dorsal, then swapping one existing lance for S2 torps on the prow.

In addition, the extra point of Lance strength on the prow would take up just as much additional space as a point of lance strength on the dorsal putting it on the prow doesn't magically make it smaller. If half of each broadside isn't sufficient, where does the sacrifice come from to allow this addition?


When in your insistence of equivalents, if we reduce the prow lance to Str 1, it would still be the equivalent of FP3 WBs? Which if I remember my math is still 1 FP more than what the Endeavor and Endurance has. Just because they replaced the broadsides with launch bays does not mean it's not taking up space. Launch Bays means attack craft, ordnance for the attack craft, crews and their equipment, fuel for the attack craft and spares for the attack craft, among other things.

The Defiant itself it proof that a Voss can hold the equivalent of FP6 in its prow - coincidentally exactly 2/3 of a standard cruiser. This makes the other Voss undergunned by FP1, but +/-FP1 is far more cedible than +/- FP4.

And where have I said that the LBs don't take up space? It's just that full size LBs (Including fuel, ordnance and materiel) take up a full FP6 WB hardpoint, and the Defiant's LBs are half size, leaving enough space left over for up to two additional lances. Even accounting for an imperfect reduction in scale, there'll be more than enough space left over to support one single Dorsal Lance.

Anyway, we're arguing in circles, so i propose Plaxor puts it to the vote:

#1. Sigoroth's proposed: S2 lances replaced by FP2 WBs and S2 Torps, for 100pts.
This brings it in line with the other Voss, gives it torps, and just accepts that the Defiant is a pure support ship. Has the advantage of being cheap.

#2. Plaxor's proposed: Add S2 torps to the prow, for 130pts.
This is a pure firepower upgrade to bring the Defiant roughly up to the level of its peers.

#3. RCgothic's proposed: Functionally identical to Plaxor's, but with one point of lance strength moved into a dorsal hardpoint.
Some feel the Admech Voss Dorsal Lance and sacrifice of half each broadside hardpoint sets precedent for this, whilst others disagree this is sufficient sacrifice. It gets around having Cruiser level firepower on a 2/3 size prow without sacrificing protection. Both AdMech and Zeus LCs have facility to accept a dorsal lance.

I would support any of these options, but I have a strong preference for #3.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 01:01:25 PM by RCgothic »

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1037
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #230 on: December 07, 2010, 12:49:24 PM »
I'm for option 2 because it's the simplest without any dorsal redesigns involved.

Offline horizon

  • Moderator
  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4200
  • Destiny Infinity Eternity
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #231 on: December 07, 2010, 01:00:56 PM »
#1 since I prefer all Voss Prows to be equal in weapon output.

Offline RCgothic

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 795
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #232 on: December 07, 2010, 01:44:17 PM »
A combination 1/3 is possible.

Offline Plaxor

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1106
  • Tyrant of BFG:Revised
    • BFG files
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #233 on: December 07, 2010, 01:50:55 PM »
Equivalent strength is not the same as physical dimensions. An M14 Battle Rifle is not much longer than an M16 even though it has more stopping power.

The limiting factor on lances is never size, always power usage. The proposed defiant isn't using much power on its torps/lbs, and doesn't have any weapon decks draining power so there doesn't seem to be much reason to prevent it being built this way.

Offline horizon

  • Moderator
  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4200
  • Destiny Infinity Eternity
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #234 on: December 07, 2010, 02:21:00 PM »
All this nonsense aside, interesting stuff:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=19823&p=381895#p381895

Battle Points:
fleet   bp
Chaos   59
Tau   39
Chaos   33
Imperial Navy   31
Tau   27
Eldar   26
Imperial Navy   23
Orks   18
Chaos   14
Necron   13
Imperial Navy   8
Imperial Navy   6
Eldar   5
Orks   2

Hopefully we'll get some fleet lists.

Offline BaronIveagh

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 859
    • Dark Reign
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #235 on: December 07, 2010, 04:51:05 PM »
And the Emperor's finest was the one who broke up the SM's supremacy just after the Horus Heresy to prevent such a thing from happening again. IN handles the spaceways. SM handles the planetary assaults. If SM think SM needs more AC support, then its time to ask for help from the IN. If SM are working alone, then usually it means they sneak in. On anything major, they work hand in hand with other SM Chapters or IN.


*sigh* Just read the book instead of lecturing me on what I read in a book you clearly haven't bothered to read yet.  And, by the way, not necessarily.  Look at fleet based chapters such as BT or chapters that don't depend on IN like DA.  

They may have a single IP but they are DIFFERENT GAMES. Can you understand that yet? If SM in BFG were as good as they are on the ground in 40k then their ships would have shown far better profiles than what they have now. GW thinks that way about SM in 40k. By their own fluff though, SM suck in space and so this is shown by the current ship profiles as well as availability of variety.

I've argued that with a GW rep as part of another issue, and, guess what?  They don't care.  (and the fluff has since been changed, I'm told, but haven't seen it yet)



They have resilient AC which survives on a 4+. That's quite enough considering the other AC fleet like Tau and Chaos still have to get through 6+ armor. The balance issue now is that SC's are more easily killed by direct weapons fire than AC because it has only 1 shield. By giving it 2 shields it increases it's survivability very well.

The proposed change would take the average sm fleet (6 sc, 1 BB at 1500) from 15 LB down to 9.  This effectively means that it would only have 2 AC to use beyond CAP needs.  Considering that in the same point range, TAU can generate 40 ac, and the +4 rule only happens once per turn, and that tau also have the +4 rule, so only 1 of those 40 ac are going to be taken out by thawks on CAP, assuming focused fire.  That's 4.5 hits through +6 on an SC.  This doesn't factor in anyone shooting, just AC.



@RC: You already put it to a vote.  Horizon voted for his change, I voted for mine, and we haven't seen any other votes yet.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 04:53:52 PM by BaronIveagh »
non nobis domine non nobis sed nomine tua da na glorium

Offline RCgothic

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 795
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #236 on: December 07, 2010, 05:53:42 PM »
The options have changed, and I think there's majority opposition to S4 bays or an Enforcer clone.

Offline Plaxor

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1106
  • Tyrant of BFG:Revised
    • BFG files
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #237 on: December 07, 2010, 08:16:52 PM »
Basically for the defiant it's coming down to the option that people hate least. So please tell me which of the options you hate, which ones you would be um... orange for, and which one you like best.

Offline RCgothic

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 795
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #238 on: December 07, 2010, 08:40:49 PM »
Red for increase to 4LBs.
Red for Enforcer clone (S3 Lances or S6 Torps).

Orange for WB2 T2 at 100pts.
Orange for Lances S2 T2 in Prow.

Green for Lances S2 T2 split between Prow/Dorsal.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 08:42:34 PM by RCgothic »

Offline BaronIveagh

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 859
    • Dark Reign
Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #239 on: December 07, 2010, 09:52:51 PM »
Green for 4 LBs and 1 per 750
Green for Enforcer clone

Orange for no change at all over current HA plan. 

Red for WB2 T2 at 100pts.
Red for Lances S2 T2 in Prow.
Red for Lances S2 T2 split between Prow/Dorsal.
non nobis domine non nobis sed nomine tua da na glorium