List of flawed ships

[commander]

FP20 @ R45 for Avenger: not over the top.
- Repulsive: FP14 R45 & S3 dorsal lances R30 upgrade to R45 possible.
- Avenger: no dorsals but extra hardpoint on the side to compensate. The armament of the Vengeance is S2 lances R45 and FP10 R60 WB. This practically equals the output of the Repulsive. Avenger swaps S2 R45 lances for FP6 R45 WB and the FP10 R60 for FP14 R45 WB and that gives us, yes, FP20 R45 WB. Going further down to R30, the FP would have to increase to at least 24, AT LEAST.

So yes, Avenger FP20 R45 WB.

[horizon]

Firestorm/Idolator : a point change to them is either both or none.
The metagame should be kept in check if we lower points on these ships. It'll make a Sword and Firestorm equal in cost but the one better prow on (especially in squad)(Firestorm) and the other little more versatile (swing arcs)(Sword).

Iconoclast: NO cost change. People should learn to play them before they change them.

Retribution with the point increase: I'm on the fence. Initially a good idea to raise the costs.

Acheron: don't touch.



Avenger with 20wb
Vengeance
Excorsist with 6 lb.

Lets not overplay all IN CG.

Options: they will get the torp option officially as it stands.

[RCgothic]

Updated to make things easier for Plaxor. Red is close to consensus, having 5 or more in agreement.

Chaos:
Acheron: Increase lances to 60cm @+10 pts [Sigoroth, RCgothic] Don’t Touch [horizon, RCgothic]
Retaliator: 3LB per side WBs at 45cm [Admiral d Artagnan, Sigoroth, RCgothic]
Devestation: Possibly increase by 10pts [Plaxor], Wait and see [RCgothic, BaronIveagh, Sigoroth]
Infidel: Give two turrets [Sigoroth, RCgothic]
Iconoclast: Reduce by 5pts [RCgothic, Plaxor, BaronIveagh] Don’t Touch[horizon,]
Idolator: Revise with new Fraal tech [Plaxor, Sigoroth], Drop by 5 points [Sigoroth, Plaxor, RCgothic, BaronIveagh]

GCs:
Add several upgrade options [Sigoroth, Plaxor, Commander, RCgothic, BaronIveagh]

IN:
Oberon: Price 345 [Plaxor, Vaaish, RCgothic (If Emperor as is)] Price 355[Vaaish, RCgothic (If Emperor 375), Sigoroth, Commander], Dependant on Emperor[BaronIveagh]
Retribution: +10 points (to 355) [Sigoroth, RCgothic, BaronIveagh, horizon(maybe)] No Increase [Vaaish]
Apocalypse: no penalty for firing up to 45cm, shooting at 60cm is still critical hit. [Admiral d Artagnan, RCgothic, Plaxor, Commander, BaronIveagh] Shooting at 60cm causes WB Offline critical to side that fires instead of Thrusters Critical [RCgothic, Sigoroth] Dorsal WBs to FP9 [Sigoroth]
Emperor: Nothing [Sigoroth, Commander, BaronIveagh, Vaaish], Increase by 10pts [RCgothic, Plaxor]
Exorcist: Increase LBs to 6, increase cost [Sigoroth, RCgothic, BaronIveagh, Commander] Option to Increase LBs to 6 at upgrade price [RCgothic], Don’t touch [Horizon, Plaxor (no increase in LBs, others fine), Vaaish]
Avenger: Drop Cost [Horizon, Vaaish], 8WBs to 45cm [RCgothic], FP 20 [Plaxor, Commander (45cm), Sigoroth, horizon], Increase Range to 45cm [BaronIveagh] +5 Speed [BaronIveagh]
Armageddon: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic, Commander, BaronIveagh] No change [Vaaish]
Mars: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic, Plaxor, Commander, BaronIveagh]
Overlord: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic, BaronIveagh], add 60cm range option [Sigoroth, Plaxor, RCgothic, BaronIveagh]
Defiant:Use Horizon's Profile [ RCgothic, Horizon, Plaxor], Delete Ship [Sigoroth], +2LBs and +5speed [BaronIveagh], No to +2LBs and +5speed [RCgothic, Horizon] Torps 4 [RCgothic, BaronIveagh, Sigoroth]
Firestorms: Drop by 5pts [Sigoroth, RCgothic, Plaxor, Commander, Vaaish, horizon(dependent on Idolator)], Don’t touch [Fracas], Lance to 45cm[RCgothic, BaronIveagh]
Falchion: Increase turrets to 2 [Sigoroth, RCgothic, BaronIveagh, Vaaish]

No objections/confirmed:
Oberon@60cm.

[horizon]

I said this at the beginning, lost in mud?

Devestation, no point change. Lances @ 45cm.

Firestorms : No 45cm lance (c'mon!).

You should add to Retribution that we want 45cm str18 and following that is a possible +10pts.

[Plaxor]

Both the Devestations range and the Retributions new guns were confirmed. Read the first post again horizon.

[horizon]

ugh, I was referring to Rc's latest posting. He only mentioned the cost. For someone dropping in at the end that might get confusing.

[Plaxor]

True.

[RCgothic]

Now my comments on the above (luckily the Ninja's haven't much affected what I'm typing!):

Acheron: I could be argued either way. 60cm range and a price increase or not, I'd be happy either way.

Retaliator: It's like a Styx, but trading 60cm and the ability to fire forwards for off-side firepower, regardless of 4 hardpoints. With the GC upgrades and the change to the Styx, I think it will be properly costed at 275 with 45cm and 6LBs.

Devestation: Need to see what effects the 45cm has first.

Infidel: Similar to the Firestorm, but with more speed and range. 40cm seems fair, but needs the turret for parity.
Idolator: Again, similar armament to the Firestorm, but with more speed and range. Needs to come down if the Firestorm is.


GCs:
Yup, the refits sound interesting. Don't think they should get BCs, and the Dorsal WBs should come down to cruiser level, not BB level. FP6.

Avenger: Still very much against FP20. With the Lance refit, it would nearly outgun a Retribution, and it shouldn't have that level of firepower. I'd be willing to concede FP16@45cm and a +5cm speed boost.
Exorcist: Effectively the same as a Retaliator, but with Lances traded for fewer WBs. Definitely LB6, definitely large price increase, possibly 60cm batteries.

Oberon: The wasted off-side firepower and reduced LBs (and premium thereof), means at least 20pts less than an Emperor. Then again, it would have the best 60cm gunnery of any IN BB (bar the Apocalypse on Lock On)
Emperor: I still think it should go up by 10pts. It's just such an attractive option, 375pts would boost all the other BBs and Carriers.
Apocalypse: I'm going to have to insist that if the Apocalypse gets FP9 WBs (Which it should, as a gunship), then they should be 45cm. It can't be allowed to compete with the Oberon at 60cm. 60cm Lances are good enough. I'd also like to strongly advocate swapping the Thrusters Critical for a WB Offline critical on the side that fires. You know it makes sense.
Retribution: 355pts is a fair price for the new package.

Armageddon: A price cut keeps it in line with Mars (+10 for Nova, +20 for LBs) and Overlord (New firepower level is broadly equivalent).
Mars: Price Cut needed to make more attractive and to keep in line with Dictator.
Overlord: Overlord is the 60cm cruiser, and it needs to maintain that. It sorely needed both the additional firepower and price cut, but it should keep its 60cm option.

Defiant: Horizon's profile just makes the most sense. It doesn't combine with the torps into a Dauntless prow armament, and it avoids LB upgrades, and keeps its role as 'Light Cruiser of the Line'.

Firestorms: Yeah, the +1WBe is compensated for by reduced versatility and toughness. -5pts makes sense.
Falchion: Making it a sword equivalent.

[Vaaish]

Raising the price of the emperor does nothing to make it a less attractive option. It's 8 lb. +1 ld, and long range for 370 points with AB. the next closest options for 8 LB is two dictators which come in at 440 points (or 420 points if you reduce the price by 10) and doesn't have the option of AB. Even upping the cost of the emperor to 380 points with AB is still 60 points cheaper for the same number of LB and longer range (obviously there is some play with the hits and shield differences). People take the empy for the support it provides and its availability in every IN list giving them greater flexibility in constructing their fleets.

Upping the cost by 10 points does nothing to address why the empy is popular nor is there any particular reason it is a problem for the empy to have that popularity. Just because a ship is popular is never a reason to change it unless that popularity is caused by the ship being over powered. In this case, the empy is not overpowered and therefore has no reason to increase in price. If you address the problem of the other IN CV's you will also affect the attractiveness of the Empy without resorting to ultimately fruitless point increases.

[Plaxor]

Removed the Emperor due to intensified opposition to increasing its cost. I do still feel that it is undercosted compared to other carriers and the despoiler especially

The Emperor for 35 (30 with the assault boats) points less than a despoiler gains +1ld (great on a fleet carrier), +6wbs capable of firing in an arc.

The Despoiler Gets +5cm speed, 3 lances (but can't fire its weapons batteries forward).

[RCgothic]

Apocalypse:

No penalty for firing up to 45cm, shooting at 60cm is still critical hit. [Admiral d Artagnan, RCgothic, Plaxor, Commander, BaronIveagh] Shooting at 60cm causes WB Offline critical to side that fires instead of Thrusters Critical [RCgothic, Sigoroth]
Dorsal WBs to FP9 [Sigoroth, RCgothic(as long as they are also reduced to 45cm)]

I'd particularly like to talk about the 2nd two. FP6 isn't the Dorsal of a gunship, but with FP9 the Apocalypse would comfortably outgun the Oberon, which has a niche as best in the 45-60 band. I think it should definitely be 45cm if it's increase to FP9.

I also think the WB Offline critical makes far more sense than a Thrusters hit, and is actually more of a handicap in most situations.

With those changes, I'm not sure lances need to get up to 45cm with no penalty. Thoughts?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Emperor is fine at 365+5 already.
Oberon return all the 45 cm guns to 60 cm and price at 365.
Even with the proposed changes to the Apoc, I still think it should be able to fire the lances up to 45 cm without any penalty.

Avenger can go to FP20@30 cm and it would still be overpriced. Right now, Smotherman puts it at 133 points. That's how badly priced it is.
Exorcist can retain the WB ranges. Just up the LB and add the points to 245-250.
Vengeance is undercosted. Has similar firepower but longer ranges as the Overlord but on a more robust chassis.

Surprisingly, Smotherman has got all the IN BCs costed either spot on or within 1-2 points. Does the Mars really need to go down? I'm not so sure. Even the Dictator is costed at 224.5 so there's a discount already and I don't really know if it's price should go down. The Mars points at the moment isn't in a factor in attractiveness as I know a lot of people take it even at the cost where it is at right now which is 270.

[RCgothic]

Armour 6+, 2 Shields and 8 hits can absorb 48 shots whilst closing.
Armour 5+, 3 Shields and 10 hits can absorb 39 hits whilst closing.

The shields and hits only make a difference from an Abeam position, so whether a GC is more durable is debatable. I still think FP20 is far too much. Increase the Avenger's speed or give it additional range, but FP20 competes with a retribution, and a GC is not a heavy BB.

[commander]

Avenger: FP16 R45 is as crap as FP16 R30. Vengeance and Repulsive are very near in firepower, a S1 lance difference. So why are people so shy to give the Avenger the firepower it deserves, coming from Vengeances S2 R45 lances and FP10 R60 WB a side? With an increase in pointcost offcourse if necessary.
Speed increase I don't see with this class and it chaos counterparts.

Apocalypse: FP9 R60 is asked, IMO, to compensate the S3 lances of the Retribution. With the proposition to allocate the critical to the lances fired, it's not so overpowered as some might think.

[RCgothic]

I'm not saying that FP9 is overpowered, I'm saying it competes with the Oberon and it shouldn't, because that's the only thing the Oberon really has going for it. 45cm dorsal would prevent the Apoc being as good in the abeam position, and it shouldn't be too much of an issue as it will want to line break anyway.