List of flawed ships

[Plaxor]

Revised first post to reflect everyone's views/solutions. Feel free to comment/vote on each.

[horizon]

Hi,
From your first post, two options are flawed in what people actually said:

Chaos:

Despoiler: Change lances to 45cm [Admiral d Artagnan], Move 4lbs from sides to front [Sigoroth], Remove prow lances, change WBs to 10@60 [Sigoroth]

Admiral D'Artagnan said Horizon's suggestion, Sigoroth likes this as well:
prow launch bays str4
port launch bays str 2
starboard launch bays str2
port weapon batteries str10 @ 60cm
starboard weapon batteries str10 @ 60cm
dorsal lance str3 @ 60cm (LFR)

May replace prow LB with str8 torpedoes.

Acheron: Increase lances to 60cm @+10 pts [Sigoroth]
This was a change of lesser priority*.

Apocalypse: 45cm on its lances [Admiral d Artagnan, RCgothic]

This should say: no penalty for firing up to 45cm, shooting at 60cm is still critical hit.

Priority
I think changes should go in order of priority. Some are needed, some less.

Also: good luck on general consensus.

[Plaxor]

Well, considering the fact that there are only really 5 people involved (Horizon, Plaxor, Admiral D Artagnan, RCgothic, and Sigoroth), then consensus will mean 4/5 will need to agree (as my arbitrary amount for a solution is 75% agreed).

If others get more heavily involved then this value will change. So far of those we have (in order of most involved) Vaaish, BaronIveagh, Zelnik, Fracas, Commander.

I will fix problems. Priorities... well I don't think it's too necessary atm, as we have about 1/4-1/3 of ships already pretty concluded on.

Put the ships closest to consensus in red. These will be priority 1 to 'finish' first. Please comment on these vessels.

Despoiler: I think there isn't really much discussion here. Horizons stats are widely/happily accepted.

Devestation: I think it's a sure thing we're reducing it's lances to 45, the question is, will it still need to be 200 points after that. I'm torn here, but still think it's plausible.

Oberon: there is a consensus here, but the question is to increase its points value to 355. It seems real pretty for 335 with current stats (so much that I might change my vote). I've never used one as I don't run BF Armageddon.

Overlord: I think everyone can agree to a mixed solution, where its weapons batteries are dropped to 12@45, as well as its points cost by 10, however you can up its wbs to 60cm, with a loss of 2fp.

Endeavor Variants: Everyone seems set on a 6+ prow. However 90' turns are a bit of discussion material. I feel that a heavily armored prow ship shouldn't be able to turn 90', and this is shown in the Rogue Trader document. Defiant is up for getting torpedos to make it more worthwhile to reload.

Tyrant: Looks like a 5pts reduction. I'm against removing the option to leave it with its standard weapon layout however  It rarely gets used that way, but it's a fun little fluffy quirk/downgrade.

[RCgothic]

Oberon: there is a consensus here, but the question is to increase its points value to 355. It seems real pretty for 335 with current stats (so much that I might change my vote). I've never used one as I don't run BF Armageddon.

The Oberon would still be more conflicted than the Emperor, wasting more of its off-side firepower and therefore being less expensive. I could see it going to 345-350pts with new stats.

Overlord: I think everyone can agree to a mixed solution, where its weapons batteries are dropped to 12@45, as well as its points cost by 10, however you can up its wbs to 60cm, with a loss of 2fp.

FP12@45cm (225pts), with option to upgrade to FP10@60cm for 235pts.

Endeavor Variants: Everyone seems set on a 6+ prow. However 90' turns are a bit of discussion material. I feel that a heavily armored prow ship shouldn't be able to turn 90', and this is shown in the Rogue Trader document. Defiant is up for getting torpedos to make it more worthwhile to reload.

Strongly disagree here. The 90' turns are vital to distinguish them from just being a small cruiser. Note that the HAs are dropping the price to remove the 90' turns, but we don't want a price drop.

Tyrant: Looks like a 5pts reduction. I'm against removing the option to leave it with its standard weapon layout however  It rarely gets used that way, but it's a fun little fluffy quirk/downgrade.

So we're talking 190pts for FP10@45cm. I'd maybe even go for a 10pt decrease.

Chaos:
Despoiler: Use modified stats [Horizon, Admiral D Artagnan, Sigoroth, Plaxor, RCgothic]
Styx: Lower cost to 250 [Admiral d Artagnan], 260 [Sigoroth, RCgothic] (Can we assume Ad'A would support a price drop to at least 260pts?)
Acheron: Increase lances to 60cm @+10 pts [Sigoroth]
Retaliator: 3LB per side WBs at 45cm [Admiral d Artagnan, Sigoroth, RCgothic]
Executor: Increase cost [Admiral d Artagnan], Don’t touch [Sigoroth, RCgothic]
Vengeance: Increase cost [Admiral d Artagnan], Don’t touch [Sigoroth, RCgothic]
Devestation: Lower lance range to 45cm [Admiral d Artagnan, Sigoroth, RCgothic, Horizon, Plaxor], Possibly increase by 10pts [Plaxor, Sigoroth, RCgothic]
Infidel: Give two turrets [Sigoroth, RCgothic]
Iconoclast: Reduce by 5pts [RCgothic, Plaxor]
Idolator: Revise with new Fraal tech [Plaxor]

GCs:
Add several upgrade options [Sigoroth]

IN:
Oberon: Up range to 60cm [Admiral d Artagnan, RCgothic (350pts), Plaxor, Sigoroth(10pts less than emperor)]
Retribution:  FP to 18 but reduce its range to 45. [Admiral d Artagnan, Horizon, RCgothic (possible reduction in lance range or possible +10pts), Sigoroth (possible +10 pts)]
Apocalypse: no penalty for firing up to 45cm, shooting at 60cm is still critical hit. [Admiral d Artagnan, RCgothic]
Emperor: Nothing [Sigoroth], Increase by 10pts [RCgothic, BaronIveagh]
Exorcist: Increase LBs to 6, increase cost [Sigoroth, RCgothic], Don’t touch [Horizon]
Avenger: Drop Cost [Horizon], 8WBs to 45cm [RCgothic]
Armageddon: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic]
Mars: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic]
Overlord: Firepower 12@45cm [Admiral d Artagnan, Sigoroth, Horizon, Plaxor, RCgothic], Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, RCgothic, (after changing firepower)], add 60cm range option (after mods) [Sigoroth, Plaxor, RCgothic]
Tyrant: Make 45cm standard [Admiral d Artagnan, Sigoroth], drop by 5points [Sigoroth, RCgothic(5-10pts), Horizon, Plaxor]
Dictator: Drop by 10 points [Sigoroth, Horizon, Plaxor, RCgothic]
Endurance: 6+ prow [Sigoroth, RCgothic, Horizon, Plaxor], 90' turns [RCgothic, Horizon, Sigoroth, lastspartacus]
Endeavor:6+ prow [Sigoroth, RCgothic, Horizon, Plaxor], 90' turns [RCgothic, Horizon, Sigoroth, lastspartacus]
Defiant: 6+ prow[Sigoroth, RCgothic, Horizon, Plaxor], give torps [Plaxor], Use Horizon's Profile (Exchange Lances for S2 Torps, FP4 Total WBs {either FP2 Prow and Dorsal or FP4 Prow}) [ RCgothic, Horizon] 90' turns [RCgothic, Horizon, Sigoroth, lastspartacus], Delete Ship [Sigoroth]
Firestorms: Drop by 5pts [Sigoroth, RCgothic, Plaxor]
Falchion: Increase turrets to 2 [Sigoroth, RCgothic]

I've taken the liberty of adding Horizon's support to the Retribution and Defiant proposals (given that he proposed them in the first place). I also know for a fact that Sigoroth and lastspartacus support 90' turns.

[commander]

I would drop the R60 option on the Overlord. It's a line breaker (front armour 6) and goes with the cruisers. No R60 needed, just as Ret.
The Vengeance GC can easily take over the support role. Altough one could include torpedoes on these GC at an extra cost. Dorsal weaponry is not needed as it is designed with more port and starboard hard points to compensate but the prow has been 'forgotten'. S6 torpedoes, just as with Repulsive, would be nice. Or some extra guns on the prow.
Avenger is trash. FP10 R60 weapons on Vengeance!! That is practically the equal of the Repulsive with FP14 R45. Avenger gets only FP16 at R30 in return??? Tsk Tsk. As a line breaker it's a joke.

[Sigoroth]

As far as the Idolator goes, how do people feel about changing its fraal weapon special rule to be like how it is in the Rogue Trader pdf, where you don't get a column shift for shooting over thirty + it counts enemies as closing if within 30?

My issue with this ship is that it is even more conflicted than the Firestorm. Mixed weaponry and fixed fire arc is a bad start. On top of this 40% of its weaponry has a range boost and a special rule rewarding that range bonus. What the hell is the point of that? If it were dropped by 15 pts and simply didn't have the lance then it would be much more balanced with a much clearer role.

If the special rule were modified as you suggest then it would at least reward the player for getting into 30cm range, at least while flanking the opponent (with fixed forward lances say goodbye to LO). So this removes the reward factor for range making this ship a tiny bit less conflicted. Mind you, with such good batteries I've no idea why they'd put a lance on the ship in the first place. Just load it out with 4WB@45cmLFR. Much much better.

Still, this suggestion is a step in the right direction, so this or the price decrease would be appropriate.

[Sigoroth]

Oh, you've forgotten to add my preferred solution to the Defiant; *delete*.

[BaronIveagh]

I guess I'll just make an official list:

Exorcist: Increase LB's by +1 per side, cost to 260/270ish
Defiant: increase speed to 25, possibly increase LB to 2 per side as a purchasable upgrade.

Reasons: The Defiant worked better as the Enforcer.  Mind you, I wouldn't drop it to 110 points, but it seemed to work a lot better as a flagship for small point IN.  As is, it's more or less worthless.  And as far as the ideas for making a carrier into a line cruiser go, Sigoroth has the best idea there.   No matter how you cut it, it won't work.  It'd be better to have it set up to drop AC and withdraw rather then try to make it into a hybrid, as it would never be balanced. 

Exorcist: Not WYSIWYG.  This is really the big one.  That and it gives IN an answer to the Styx.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Exorcist getting an additional LB per side is because of its size not because it's supposed to be an answer to the Styx because IN isn't supposed to have a lot of AC anyway,

[BaronIveagh]

Exorcist getting an additional LB per side is because of its size not because it's supposed to be an answer to the Styx because IN isn't supposed to have a lot of AC anyway,

I did, I might point out, put that reason first.  It would also have the other, additional effect  Which I don't think of as a bad thing, personally. 

One more thing on the Defiant: in all the official lists it has appeared in so far, the Defiant either has to compete with the Strike Cruiser or Dictator for points value and is additionally crippled by it's special requirement. 

[RCgothic]

Luckily the requirement is going to points rather than Endeavours in future.

[BaronIveagh]

Still, that's not a great improvement over how things are, unless we're neutering the SC or eliminating the Armageddon list. 

[fracas]

 the IN firestorm is fine as is

[RCgothic]

It's easily the worst of the bunch. Its marginal increased firepower doesn't make up for its reduced firing arc.

[Plaxor]

Fixed top. Added a section for 'confirmed changes'.

Horizon need your vote on:
Styx Cost

Admiral D Artagnan need your vote on:
Endeavor prows. Tyrant cost. Dictator cost.