List of flawed ships

[Eldanesh]

The main reason that an Ret is/should be a bt cheaper compared to an Emp was the fact that Launch bays are superior to batteries. But with the recent changes (e.g. Escorts more resilent to Assault Boats) this advantage isn't that big anymore.

So 355 is a reasonable price.

But the range should go up to 60cm. It's simply the way it should be: cruiser 30cm, battlecruiser 45, BBs 60cm. 

Sure, if you have to chose between range and power anybody would take firepower, as batteries tend to be a bit useless if more then 30cm away, but why should you do that if it feels simply wrong.

[RCgothic]

People should quite using Smotherman for everything. It doesn't provide a value for what ships are actually worth, only what most were originally priced at.

The Retribution is fine as is. It doesn't need to be cheaper, and it doesn't need 60cm range on its broadsides.

[Taggerung]

I don't even play Imperial's and I notice it's a flawed ship. It doesn't really matter because even if I did play Imperials I would just cost it where it should be. It's over cost and as is, there is NO reason to ever take it. Even the Vanquisher which has only 4 less batteries on each side has the same lances, and only 3 less torps...for less points.

[RCgothic]

Retribution: 355pts

S9 Torps,
FP18 Broadsides@45cm
S3 Dorsal Lances@60cm

Vanquisher: 300pts
S6 Torps
S4 Lances@45cm
FP6 Batteries@60cm.

The Retribution has 3-4x the firepower at 60cm . At 45cm the Retribution easily equals the Vanquisher's 4 lances, and has about FP8 left over. At less than 30cm, the Retribution owns the Vanquisher because it has a higher proportion of firepower in WBs that come into their own at short range. The Retribution is 55pts better than a Vanquisher, hands down, no contest.

It doesn't need Range 60, and it doesn't need to be cheaper than 355pts. It was flawed at FP12, undergunned and conflicted. But now it's fine, and it is not a bad thing that the Apocalypse outranges it and outguns it at that range - The Retribution still holds the advantage close up.

There's nothing wrong with the Retribution as fixed.

[Taggerung]

Ummm...That's not the Vanquisher

Vanquisher - 345 pts

Same stats in terms of hits and what not

Port/Star Weapons Battery - Str 8, 45cm
Port/Star Lance Battery - Str 3, 45 cm
Prow Torps - Str 6
Dorsal Weapons Battery - Str 6, 45cm, L/F/R

So on either side it can produce str 14 batteries, and 3 lances...

[RCgothic]

That version is out of date, and being superceded by the version in the HA's Battlefleet Bakka, with the exception of 20cm speed.

Sorry, quite a few of the documents have been left out of date by rapid changes. It's no-one's fault, though we really could do with a separate change log document.

And even we were using the previous version of the Vanquisher, you don't think 10pts is fair upgrade for 3 extra torps, FP4 greater broadside capacity and range 60 on 3 dorsal lances?

[Taggerung]

I am going off of what is in the Flawed fleet lists, not what is in the Battlefleet Bakka or Ork clanz (If we are talking about orks...which btw, that document is pure garbage)...This is the flawed fleet thread, unless it's also being replaced here.

[RCgothic]

Yes, and the flawed ships version is due to change with the next update - we aren't fixing what ain't broke, and the HA's Vanquisher ain't broke (speed excepted, plus fluffy option for prow launch bay).

It's similar to how we were expecting to change the Overlord to FP12@45cm, but it became unnecessary when the HA's gave it a price break and targeting array options. Having two completely different profiles for the same ship would just get people confused over which version was in use.

[RCgothic]

As for the marks:

Mark of Slaanesh:
I do like the stacking chart you've got, but unfortunately I don't think it would work in practice. -1Ld to all ships within 15cm would be fine, stacking.

Mark of Khorne:
Fine as is (doubles boarding value and +1 to crit in boarding actions)

Mark of Tzeench:
I like the idea of rerolling all criticals caused by the vessel's direct fire, both offensively and defensively. Very Tzeentchy.

Mark of Nurgle:
+1 Hit, +1 Modifier when defending a boarding action, IIRC? Fine.

[Plaxor]

Nurgle's is 'Inhospitable Environent' which forces the attacker to roll two dice and pick the lowest if the nurgle ship is defending in a boarding action.

[Taggerung]

Plaxor,

So I got to play with the Deadnought class tonight and it was pretty much everything I wanted, it's a big beast that can bring a lot of firepower to bear on it's target. Having the possibility of str 18 guns on the prow is just nice to have since the heavy gunz once again were never used lol.

I completely forgot to use the Zappa Gunz though, but I was fighting DE so that wouldn't have come up.

[Plaxor]

Yeah, against DE I probably wouldn't use the zappa guns anyways. Not worth the loss of shields. What did your opponent think?



On MoT; I'm not sure how valuable re-rolling critical hits is. I mean, naturally someone would force a re-roll of hull breach or bulkhead collapse, maybe even bridge smashed. As certain criticals are far more likely to end up worse, like say you want them to re-roll a result of port weapons damaged, hoping to get somewhere else. Ick... I guess that's tzeentchy.

Although ships are only likely to reveive 1, maybe 2 critical hits before they are destroyed. Likewise they are probably going to only dish out one or two, so probably not that valuable overall, as it doesn't give such a straightforward benefit. Maybe adding in H&R attacks?

[Taggerung]

They were rightfully terrified of it, but once a boss and upgrades are all said and done, it's like a 515 pt ship, so they seemed cool with it.

I thought of something that was absurd and probably shouldn't be allowed is the big mek with a powerfields upgrade. It seemed too good since I at one point had 6 shields on the ship lol.

Maybe the character upgrades shouldn't transfer to the deadnought or perhaps just no extra upgrades for that ship. Maybe I am just thinking it's too good, but it's not like I didn't rightfully pay for it.

[Plaxor]

Actually I was thinking for the Deadnot that your fleet commander would have to be aboard it, which would mean mandatory Warlord, naturally the worst character to put on it. Maybe not though.

None of the upgrades really cause any issues here, I mean Extra powerfields is quite good, but I wouldn't think substantially enough that the 515 pt vessel would be unstoppable. Still pretty vulnerable to bombers, and he just had to hit you when you rolled a '1' for shields. Also DE have a huge manoeuvering advantage against Orks. All he had to do was kill everything else, then sit behind your big ship and shoot.

And at 515 pts.... I'd rather have a PK, every time. So I don't know if there is that much issue with it.

[Taggerung]

PK?