List of flawed ships

[Taggerung]

I agree with Sigoroth...it's a line breaker, but the fact that the Emperor which is not a line breaker can bring almost as much firepower (2 short) and at longer range seems like that's a problem.

Why not increase the guns to 20 at 45, which would cost it at 353 which is where it costs now, and then we have a true ship of the line. As it is, there is no reason to ever take it tbh...the emperor does as much at range, and then launches 8 AC a turn as well.

[RCgothic]

The Emperor can't bring anywhere near as much firepower as the Retribution.

The Emperor gets FP16@60, that's 3 dice against capital ship abeam at 45-60cm. The Retribution also gets 3 dice from its lances, except these are hitting on a 4+ - between 50% and 300% better.

The Emperor gets 8 dice against capital ship closing at 45-60cm. Against a 5+ prow, that's 2.67hits, so it does beat the Retribution's 1.5hits there. But if it's a 6+ prow, the Retribution still wins 1.5 to 1.33.

Now the Retribution gets into range. The Emperor is still rolling just 8 dice against capital ship closing, but the Retribution is rolling 9 AND still has its lances. That's double the firepower.

So the Retribution usually equals the Emperor, and at <45cm doubles it.

The Retribution simply doesn't need the range, and I'm with Sigoroth in not wanting to pay for it. It's fine at FP18@45cm.

[horizon]

FP18 @ 45cm Retribution is how it must be.
If they want 18 @ 60cm at same value I'm fine with it as well.

[RCgothic]

Now on the subject of the Invincible, it isn't just a weak Retribution - though the two have roughly similar firepower, they have completely different roles.

The Retribution is a Linebreaker, and you're right that with FP18 and S9 forward torps, there's nothing that's going to outgun it at close range. It excels in fleet actions, leading a phalanx of 20cm 6+ armoured prow cruisers into the heart of the enemy - The Invincible, with FP3 fewer per side and a glass chin couldn't hope to compete here.

The Invincible was meant for a different purpose - keeping pace with raiding chaos cruisers and obliterating them. It doesn't need a strong prow armament because it doesn't want to be closing with the enemy - it's too fragile. What it does have is double the firepower of an Emperor at the same range, and it can use its speed to use that range to maximum effect. In a fleet situation, its best use isn't charging into the centre of an enemy fleet, but harrying the enemy from long range either by itself, or heading up a group of cruisers that can do the same. (this is why I still like the Mercury, and the idea of a Siluria with 45cm batteries).

The two will play completely differently, and it will be perfect for a bakka list.

[Sigoroth]

You know, I don't see the Invincible as needing to stay at range. Sure it has less shields than a Retribution, but if we're talking a balanced vessel in terms of cost this is no disadvantage. If it had the exact same stats as a Retribution but traded shields for speed I'd still be using it as a line-breaker. The extra range allows it to be used as a stand-off ship, but it still has potent broadsides that benefit from being up close more than being at range, so why wouldn't you run this ship as a line-breaker? It's still more durable than any CB or even any CG with that prow armour and extra hits and has greater speed.

If you want to force this ship to be a stand-off vessel then drop the prow armour and torps and give it 6 prow WBs LFR at 60cm. Leave the broadsides at only 12, further discouraging line breaking. This will give you stand-off firepower nearly on par with an Apocalypse while being more reliable and cheaper. Most likely in the 300pt region, less given the crit rules. The extra swinging firepower would also be good for its role in chasing down enemy ships, for which being able to fire forward would be off benefit. When giving battle it would then swing around to present a broadside and focus fire.

[RCgothic]

Well true, that would be a better stand off vessel - but we should try and maintain some continuity with the original profile.

[Taggerung]

Invincible doesn't need to exist. That aside, you still have the problem of the Retribution being 15 points over cost. Either lower it's costs, or beef up it's guns.

[Plaxor]

I don't think that the Ret should go to range 60, it just doesn't have that feel to it.


@Tag

I was surprised when people wanted it to be increased in cost by 10 points for this reason as well. Maybe it was just my Emperor mental issues, but I've solved those.

[lastspartacus]

The cost shouldnt change, and it should go to the proposed wb18 45cm.  That is the Retribution I always imagined.  Tasty.

[RCgothic]

I don't believe that the Retribution is overcosted at 355pts.

Compared to the Emperor is has:

x3 Broadside firepower.
x2.7x Prow Firepower
x3 Dorsal Firepower
+5cm Speed
+6+ Prow.

-10pts
-15cm range on broadside.
-8 attack craft.
-1Ld

The leadership and range trade for the 6+ prow and speed, which leaves a 10pt discount and 3x firepower for 8 attack craft - easily a good bargain.

[lastspartacus]

Again i ask the question about, besides being neat, what could have possibly led to the existence of a 'subpar' battleship without dorsal lances?

[RCgothic]

The Vanquisher? A need to quickly replace combat losses with an easily constructed BB? A need for numerous BBs to provide heavy support to a wider area? Loss of technology required to service Dorsal Lances at a particular forge world? Quite a few explanations.

The Invincible fits in because fast gunships are very Battlefleet Bakka. It's for this reason I don't think we should completely drop the Mercury, though I could see a folding into the Overlord profile. The Siluria could also have R45 guns- it has so little firepower that R45 would give it more character and allow it to be a hits 6 ship without stepping on the Endeavour's toes.

[lastspartacus]

That just does not seem to fit the Imperial modus operandi for battleships.  Admirals have huge boners for battlecruiers anyway, they would likely opt for that kind of long range firepower.  Battleships are rare because they are much more difficult to create, and thus are made sure to be exceptional.  The Imperium makes them as powerful singular centerpieces.  I can only see the Vanq's existence as a salvaged-from-better-battleships kind of hull.

[lastspartacus]

I personally think the MoT should be a reroll for either offensive or defensive crits, not both.  Just my thoughts.

Also, what did you change on the MoN?

[Taggerung]

RCGothic,

It doesn't matter if you don't think it's over cost, because when using the Smotherman formula to calculate it's cost, it comes out at 15 points over cost right now. That is the basis for pretty much every ship done in the flawed lists. As I said, either increase it's guns to 20 (Which works out to be an additional 12 points, so would match it's 355 price tag) or decrease the points down to 340, where it actually costs.