List of flawed ships

[fracas]

there has been no HA post on this thread at all
regardless of what our concensus is it won't make it official


and we are talking about alot of changes, all metagaming without much playtesting ... even points changes require play testing imho

[RCgothic]

I'm not surprised no HA has posted in this thread. It's come about as a direct result of their hands being tied.

Still, a Warp Rift article is better than nothing at all, and the good thing about the less-than-official nature of this review is that it's easy to change our minds about decisions that turn out to be the wrong ones.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Even real life examples like the Ise and Hyuga sacrificed their aft guns to add a flight deck.

A better example might be the US AVP boats for purpose of comparison.  Admittedly, they were rebuilt destroyers, but the basic principal stands. 

You can't really get any better than the Ise and Hyuga which are battleships and carriers.

[Plaxor]

The Avenger:

People have been arguing over this one lately so I am going to step in as moderator. Stop flaming each other please!

Currently we are just trying to balance the GCs and they will be balanced at their appropriate points value before adding on upgrades (If they go through), the upgrades will then be balanced. I hope that the upgrades will be slightly overcosted, to represent a rarity and lack of replaceable parts to the upgrades. As well that it costs you to get more out of the ships.

Anyways we will talk about the primary argument, increasing the ship to FP20@30cm

Argument Against: With firepower 20 the Avenger will compete too easily with the Retribution at FP18. Especially with a dorsal lance upgrade. A better way to compensate could be increasing the vessels range to 45cm. Unlike the Vengeance, who wastes a lot of off-side firepower, the avenger will have it by about 24fp.

Argument For: The Avenger is obviously underpowered at firepower 16, increasing its side batteries up to twenty is not a large difference, and will make it fulfill the fluff behind it much better. At range thirty it has a significant disadvantage when compared to the Retribution. Short range weapons batteries are always more powerful. The retribution is much better at taking damage, has torpedos and of course longer range, so it will be able to engage the enemy sooner and longer than an Avenger, which has a first strike attitude, and will get maybe one or two shots in before having to turn and reengage.

The Vengeance could go into the firefight, just the same as the Avenger, and have comparable firepower, at a total of eight less. Although the Vengeance has the option of this. The Avenger has to close, and will take a lot of damage in this process.


Also I want to put on a few tier levels of things that I don't think we should conclude until playtesting. Oh and my suggestions would be for the GCs; removing improved thrusters from the Retaliator and making it an upgrade for all GCs.

[Plaxor]

Oh and the firestorm cost/mars cost went through. Only disagreement on the mars is AdmDArt, citing the smotherman formula. Firestorm, well Fracas didn't think it needed reduced, but didn't cite any evidence.

The Armageddon range modification I want a larger group to agree before that is confirmed, as the reasons for this seem loosely founded. Port/Starboard weapons critical makes sense after firing the guns at  long range.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

FP16 isn't really underpowered. It's quite a lot if and when the Avenger can get to use it. The problem is its siblings are more useful at longer ranges. If it had FP16@45 cm it becomes slightly better but would still be horribly costed at  210 since Smotherman puts it at 178. Make it FP18@45 cm then it gets bumped to 184 which I think is a much better deal and not so much overcosted anymore by 26, less if we can get the price down to 200.

I'm not against the Mars recosting per se. I'm just pointing out some more info for the board's perusal.

[RCgothic]

I agree that FP16 isn't underpowered, it just doesn't often get to use it. FP20 isn't going to change the fact that the Avenger has a horrible time getting to close range. Ideally it would hide behind another ship with a 6+ prow until in gun range, but that's not always possible.

So give it +5cm speed, +D6 AAF, and/or 45cm range and most of those problems go away without giving it BB level firepower. It simply can't be allowed to be the IN ship with the most damage potential ahead of even the most gunship-y of BBs.

Do Grand Cruisers count as Cruisers/Battlecruisers for the purposes of Squadrons?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

They count separately. They can't squadron with the regular cruisers like the BCs though one needs 2 regular cruisers to get 1 GC like the BCs in an IN fleet.

+5 speed, +D6 AAF still won't cover the cost it is currently at, even if the 30 cm range becomes 45 cm.

[Plaxor]

Hmmm... for some reason to me the avenger doesn't seem like it should have long range. Just an absurd amount of guns so that if it ever shoots, it does significant damage. Its a linebreaker, a badly designed one and that's why it is obsolete. With longer range players will use it like how they use the vengeance, and treat it as such.

I think that with FP20@30cm it makes it unique and a tempting buy (even though it is still considered underpowered by smotherman). Sure it has more fp than a Ret, but there are justifications for this, as in the fluff it says they didn't use dorsal weapons and instead increased port/starboard firepower.

At fp18@45, that competes way too directly with the retribution, and really is just the same firepower in a different package. Vessels when they exchange range for more weapons batteries this usually is quite a bit of difference. (by an average of 25% increase in firepower) meaning that at firepower 20@30cm is the equivalent of fp15@45cm, less than a retribution. Of course by this the retribution would have about fp25@30cm.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Well, if you want to just use FP20 then the price really has to come down. I won't be paying that much for it. At 180 points, I will most likely take it even though it still is overpriced.

[Plaxor]

Ick... 180.... this is one thing that there isn't an easy answer for. I don't think the smotherman formula is perfect here. I would like to see it playtested.

However we should find some solution that leaves the ship with only wbs, and makes it cost around 200-210 points.

Lets look at suggestions that we have, Half weapons @45, this would smotherman out to 199. (wbs twice as expensive at 45 as they are at thirty? what?). Increase speed by 5, well this doesn't do much per terms of smotherman, but does a lot for actual gameplay.

Ultimately I think this ship will be 10-15 points overcosted as compared to smotherman.

[Plaxor]

Note: you guys may have already stated your opinion, but I didn’t catch it. Please tell me if you are for or against all of these options.

Horizon, would like your comment on:

Retaliator changed to 6 LBs and 45cm guns
Infidel with two turrets
Idolator with new fangled fraal tech

GC upgrade options

Apocalypse Str9 dorsal wbs and critical to port/starboard weapons rather than engines when firing 60cm.
Armageddon dropping by 10 points
Overlord dropping by 10 points
Defiant torps to 4
Firestorm lance to 45
Falchion turrets to 2


Other people later, have to move.

[BaronIveagh]

Hmmm... for some reason to me the avenger doesn't seem like it should have long range. Just an absurd amount of guns so that if it ever shoots, it does significant damage. Its a linebreaker, a badly designed one and that's why it is obsolete. With longer range players will use it like how they use the vengeance, and treat it as such.

I think that with FP20@30cm it makes it unique and a tempting buy (even though it is still considered underpowered by smotherman). Sure it has more fp than a Ret, but there are justifications for this, as in the fluff it says they didn't use dorsal weapons and instead increased port/starboard firepower.

At fp18@45, that competes way too directly with the retribution, and really is just the same firepower in a different package. Vessels when they exchange range for more weapons batteries this usually is quite a bit of difference. (by an average of 25% increase in firepower) meaning that at firepower 20@30cm is the equivalent of fp15@45cm, less than a retribution. Of course by this the retribution would have about fp25@30cm.

Actually, that's the reverse of 40k fluff (older = better).  IN fluff states that they're moving way from line breaking and carriers toward pre-dreadnought period tactics.  (not in those exact terms, but...)

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Made a mistake in my computations. Avenger with current stats would be at 157 at the moment. Making every weapon 45 cm pushes the price to 205 which is near the price it is costed at now. Making half at 30 cm and half at 45 cm just pushes it to 180.

So I am more in favor of pushing the current FP16 to 45 cm.

[BaronIveagh]

Um, Plaxor, I jsut read the front page and my idea on the Avenger was an either/or proposition, not both, the way it's worded there.  Either give it a +5 to speed or a range of 45, not both, that's be stupid broken.