September 13, 2024, 12:17:47 AM

Author Topic: List of flawed ships  (Read 290412 times)

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #840 on: February 17, 2011, 07:32:57 AM »
Yeah.... every game I've played with it is somewhat like this:

Player A places a base where he thinks he wants to move his ship, measures weapons ranges, realizes he will be out of range/will get a right shift/whatever. He then tries a different location and does the same. Then realizes that he might be able to use the planet to get some help, does that...

It's watching someone do everything in their turn before they commit to doing anything....

Offline commander

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #841 on: February 17, 2011, 08:05:59 AM »
pre-measuring: dump it.

Offline Taggerung

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #842 on: February 17, 2011, 08:57:39 AM »
Disallow pre-measuring of weapons during the movement phase...I like the pre-measuring in shooting however since it makes sense that they would know what would be in range...removing it also gets rid of target priority rules, which are kind of important.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #843 on: February 17, 2011, 09:09:00 AM »
Not really an issue. You declare your target, you then measure range. If you/your opponent think that it isn't the closest then you measure and compare.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #844 on: February 17, 2011, 09:33:11 AM »
Also just because they have the tech to know how far away things are doesn't mean much. An American military study tested jet-fighter pilots to see how much information they could respond to out of all the information they are given in the cockpit. The result was... 12%
Dismal at best.

Besides, every player is at least a decent judge of how far something is, ships take time to lock their guns on the proper heading, load ammunition, etc. I don't think it's that unreasonable that they would check range against every ship first. Rather:

Commander: shoot that one! It looks like it's within 30,000 km...
Guy: But commander? the ship is 30,001 km away?
Commander: So?
Guy: Our weapons get a right shift on the gunnery table!
Commander: Right! let's shoot something else, how far is that random escort?

Offline Taggerung

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #845 on: February 17, 2011, 09:58:14 AM »
Eh...do what you will, but my group will most likely still use pre-measuring as literally it only comes up in the shooting phase, and slows down nothing.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #846 on: February 17, 2011, 10:03:43 AM »
Yep, we might very well say pre-measuring ranges in the shooting. Honestly that isn't a big deal, or much of an issue at all. Depends on what Horizon says. (Yes I've called you out Horizon.)

Offline horizon

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #847 on: February 17, 2011, 10:09:08 AM »
*THE LAW STRIKES BACK*

With pre-measuring I meant the measuring in the movement phase to get best positions (eg to get in range and all).
This movement pre-measuring could/should go in my opinion as it slows it all down. Going by 'eye' can also make for cooler situations. heheh.


In the shooting phase measuring is a given:
- eg you must fire at closest (unless ld test is taken).
- You must measure to see what the range is.

So shooting phase has no premeasuring really.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #848 on: February 17, 2011, 10:12:23 AM »
With pre-measuring I meant the measuring in the movement phase to get best positions (eg to get in range and all).
This movement pre-measuring could/should go in my opinion as it slows it all down. Going by 'eye' can also make for cooler situations.

I think that's the general idea. Not knowing if you're going to be in range when you fire is cooler. Cooler=win.

Offline horizon

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #849 on: February 17, 2011, 10:24:27 AM »
Your name!

Good poll by the way.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #850 on: February 17, 2011, 10:29:04 AM »
Yep. When I try to delete it keeps giving me error messages. So I changed it.

As far as my name goes, I was screwing with my profile settings. I'll probably change it back in a little.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #851 on: February 17, 2011, 10:35:42 AM »
Although your system is decent.... and I'll likely do that if I can't think of anything else.... ugh....

So far things proposed:

D3: Too powerful
Single re-rolls hits: Decent, although kinda weird
Pulsar: Decent... but weird for the same reasons
Increasing LBs: Would likely have apocalyptic consequences!
Minimum of one attack: Boring, and still weird
Single +1 to hit: Very weird... and potential limiting.
D2: Perfect, but people don't like rolling D2s :)

Oh then RC's D6-2, but that just makes bombers better against most targets, and you might as well just go with D2's.

The current average attacks is 1.67 per surviving bomber against T2.

D3 do an average of 2, and are therefore a buff.
+1, Re-rolls and pulsar all feel contrived.
D2s are weird for never being explicitly used anywhere else, and cut bomber effectiveness by 10% (I don't agree a nerf is necessary).
Increasing LBs would indeed be apocalyptic.
True Turret Suppression: Could work, but increases dependency on fighters, which is a negative as ABs get no similar bonus.
Minimum of one attack: Is more powerful against all turreted targets. Has the same average as D3 against T2.
D6-2Has an identically equal average against T2. Would go to D6-1 for crippled targets, which is again the same as now for T2 targets.
D6-2 with modifiers Similar to D6-2, but also incorporates True Turret Suppression and defensive bonuses for turret massing. Starts to get complicated, would actually affect tactics to a great degree, and still doesn't benefit

Of all these systems, the only ones I would consider viable are TTS or D6-2, with a preference for D6-2, for the simple reason that they change things the least and don't adjust the overall power level of bombers that much all things considered. Of those two, D6-2 is the simpler and doesn't arbitrarily favour escorting bombers over escorting assault boats.

The only other system I can think of is a bit more radical:

Bombers get D3 attacks. They are therefore 20% more powerful than at present against T2. Fighters get 1 attack each. Including fighters in a wave therefore dilutes their effectiveness - a wave of half bombers/half fighters would score 1.5 attacks on average, which is less than a wave of pure bombers at present. Fighters also count as resilient against attack craft markers, but NOT against turrets, torpedos or direct fire weaponry. Resiliency is changed so that multiple saves may be attempted per turn. Fighters must engage each other before moving on to attack the bombers.

How this would play out is: A wave of 2 Fighters and 4 bombers are intercepted by 3 fighters. The interceptors fail one of the 2 saves caused by the 2 defending fighters, and simultaneously the defenders fail one of the 3 saves by the three interceptors. In the second round of combat, the remaining defender fails its saves, and so does one of the attackers. In the third round, the remaining attacker removes one bomber and passes its save, and in the fourth round, one bomber is removed and the fighter fails its save. 2 bombers remain and may attack a ship.

This gets around Sigoroth's earlier objection to a 2:1 kill ratio, because a fighter is just as likely to kill as many bombers if they contact all at once, or if they detatch and contact one-by-one.

This sounds good, but would probably require play testing. Also, a fleet without any ordnance would be much more vulnerable than one that could put up SOME defensive ordnance.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #852 on: February 17, 2011, 10:37:30 AM »
As for pre-measuring, as far as movement goes it should be like chess:

If you take your fingers off, that's where it stays unless your move was actually illegal.

As far as pre-measuring for shooting goes, meh, whatever. You already need to determine which the closest ships in each fire arc are, which can take a lot of measuring anyway.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #853 on: February 17, 2011, 10:47:48 AM »
RC, that was hard to follow.

Currently Resilient Ord doesn't work against turrets or weapons fire. Only against other ordnance markers.

I don't think there would need to be any specification that it doesn't work against Torps. Maybe they only remove 1 marker (I.e. 1 20mm base, so against 9 torps they would only kill 3)

The fighter could only kill one anyway. Unless the player was able to place his fighter in front of another torp salvo when attacking another one.

AB buff.... Hmmmmm.... ABs did get a lot considering the Terminators rule, however they do need a list tailored to use them.

I think we will be using TTS, as I'm a fan and there aren't really any objections (at least yet!). There is one minor thing I do intend to change; if two resilient things run into each other and both pass their save then they both die. As they would naturally keep fighting, and they already passed their save, so they can't make another.

I do think that having a carrier should be almost necessary. I mean... how screwed do you think a modern fleet would be without one?

Although fighters should be better defenders, which is why I do like them being able to remove multiple bombers.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #854 on: February 17, 2011, 10:56:33 AM »
On the note of ABs you could give them either more H&Rs for each fighter in the wave, or the Terminators rule if any fighters survive after turrets.