List of flawed ships

[Plaxor]

Pthisis,

There is a lot of math behind this. I do agree with you that Orks shouldn't have lances except in rarity. Their escorts aren't the best in the game, save for the Brute and Ravager, and since escorts overall are considered somewhat underpowered there is no problem here. The only problem would be if an ork escort fleet was stomping people... which in fact no escort fleet (other than corsairs) has.

The fleet that you're thinking of that wins tournaments is very basic.... 6x terrorship 3xwarlord+extra powerfields(or mega armored nobs). Read Deadshane's article in one of the latest warp rifts if you need evidence of this. The reason for this was that FAQ2007 fighta bommbers were about 120% as effective as regular bombers (due to turret suppression rules) which made Ork ordinance fleets quite substantial of an opponent.

Now with faq2010 FBs are about 80% as effective as regular bombers. Which means that we shouldn't see Orks winning any tournaments again.

Orks can't win a shooting battle. Even if they tailored a fleet to it. They're dependent on boarding to win fights, and even this is quite unreliable.

Orks needed more guns, not much more, but enough so that the option to shoot was actually comparable to the option to board.

If you want to read more on the subject, I have a pdf in my documents titled 'Ork flawed ships.75' or something like that, which gets into the research behind it.

As far as lances go, orks don't have that many. Only the slamblasta.

@taggerung range 15 isn't useless. In fact the only reason why it seems useless is that every time you would be close enough to use 15cm guns, you would've chosen to board or ram instead.

Orks are an alpha strike fleet. You win or lose (pretty much) the turn that you hit them. The only way to get around this is go escort heavy (which I like to do).

I think I have a solution for our lance conundrum/boring ship dealy.

How about the Big Mek's ship is allowed to replace any heavy guns with a str. D3@30cm lance for +10 points each? Or free and it suffers the power fluctuations rule.

[Taggerung]

That could work...I do like the power fluctuation rule for them. Good idea.

Thinking on that...Maybe the character on the ship can alter how it is run.  Warboss can swap out Heavy Gunz for more gunz, and vice versa for the Freeboota kaptain, or the Freebootz kaptain has the ability to use Snazzgunz (Like Flashgitz weapons) which shift left on the firepower column but for 20 pts and cannot have maniac gunners or something like that. This would allow for a bit more flavor for the fleet

[Plaxor]

k, Big mek lances+pf rule is in.

Freeboota kaptains are supposed to be the shooty ones, warlords are supposed to be the 'up in ur face' ones. Maniak gunners are supposed to represent either slightly better weaponry, or better targeting systems already.

Orks should always have mixed weaponry. So there is a no go on replacing guns/heavy guns with one or the other.

[Phthisis]

@Plaxor -  Good compromise.  I feel comfortable with your solution.  My only request is we call them zzap guns instead of lances.
And I agree orks need more guns.  Any chance there is a broadside variant cruiser in the works?

@Taggerung - Last game was  a good one for me.  Despite my ineffective fleet selection, botched set up, poor planning and bad dice I was still able to pull it off.  At least I know my strategy was sound now.  Next game will be better.  The chaos fleet doesnt scream out how to play it immediately when you see the fleet list so there is a bit of a learning curve.  Even moreso with the IN.  Next time my list and technique will be more refined.

As for fluff, don't ork shields go down permanently once hit for gargants and such? That would be an interesting mechanic if you had to roll repairs to bring your shields back up.   I wouldn't say their tech is superior to eldar or even the imperium when it comes to energy weaponry.  I remember it being unreliable and often downright dangerous to the user.  I like the power fluctuation for that reason.

[Plaxor]

It's true. Which is actually the reason most people say Ork ships have more hits, its because they have more shields that can't be repaired.

Shields that need repairing work poorly for game mechanics, and we don't want to drastically change the feel or inner workings of the fleet.

You two know each other? I guess that would explain it.

Why broadside cruisers? No one else has asked for this?

[Taggerung]

Yea we do lol...

As for a broadside version, that was kind of the premise behind the other cruiser I put together (Hence the Left Front Right gunz) so that the side could be used in a traditional broadside fashion. I think a broadside upgrade for the Killkroozer would be neat to incorporate.

[Plaxor]

So more thoughts on 'Deadnot' Class:

Ork vessels are continually rebuilt and upgraded. Ships may change weaponry or even class after a battle. Xenographers note that Orks bear a peculiarity when it comes to building vessels. Most of their ship components are salvaged from Imperial hulks, retrofitted to the strange alien designs.

Most vessels begin their dreaded existence in a variety of forms, various Ork commanders will need components for their vessels, so every salvage gets parceled out however the clans see fit. It is not often that Orks will allow any one vessel to grow too much in power, presumably because the Xenos would find it a good fight to challenge the larger vessel.

One thing proves true however in Ork naval ethics, that whoever wins the battle gains rights to the majority of the salvage. Most of these parts are incomprehensible to the orks, and cannot be fitted to their Kroozers, or just wouldn't be for an unknown reason. The constant rebuilding and exchange of warship components is almost baffling. However there is one truth that has shown through, that Ork vessels tend to increase in size over time. This is likely due to winning battles and adding ever more raw metal to the ship with each refit. No one knows quite how long it takes, but presumably a ship winning tens, or perhaps hundreds of battles eventually becomes large enough to dwarf even the Emperor's Battleships....

These vessels are inevitably hunted without relent, as Naval commanders find that the Xenos become all too confident with such a large vessel in their ranks.

Type/Hits          Speed/Turns        Armour     Shields    Turrets
Battleship/14         15/45'            6+/5+/4+      3           3

Prow Guns:   2D6+6     45cm
Prow Heavy Guns:  10  15cm
Prow Torpedoes:  D6+6
Port/Stb Guns: D6+6   30cm
Port/Stb Heavy Guns: 6  15cm
Port/Stb Torpedoes: D6+4
Dorsal Lances: D3+2   45cm

Swaps for LBs accordingly. Probably +2 hit upgade.

[RCgothic]

Type/Hits          Speed/Turns        Armour     Shields    Turrets
Battleship/14         15/45'            6+/5+/4+      3           3

Prow Guns:   2D6+6     45cm
Prow Heavy Guns:  10  15cm
Prow Torpedoes:  D6+6
Port/Stb Guns: D6+6   30cm
Port/Stb Heavy Guns: 6  15cm
Port/Stb Torpedoes: D6+4
Dorsal Zzap Guns: D3+2   45cm

Swaps for LBs accordingly. Probably +2 hit upgade.

Fixed for ya.

[Taggerung]

Omg...a Deadnot class is super orky and just looks fun to play with. It just screams "Come at me 'Umiez!" I like the idea of a super ship!

[RCgothic]

you do NOT want to get into the 15cm band in front of this Deadnot!

By my recknoning it has a forward focus firepower@15cm of 50WBe - nasty! Even out to 45cm you're looking at 45WBe equivalent.

The broadside at 15cm also comfortably outguns a Retribution on average (though not at ranges above 15cm)

I'm not objecting, but should certainly make sure it's expensive...

Just one thought though - how does it compare to a Hulk?

[Plaxor]

I was thinking 450-550 points. Cheaper than a hulk... lets see:

Prow weaponry is about the same. Deadnot has +2 heavy guns, equivalent guns, +2 torpedoes, same Zzapp guns.

Port/Starboard Guns on the Deadnot is weaker 9.5 vs 13. Has about the same torpedoes (7 vs 7.5). Actually has heavy guns (6 to 0)

Deadnot doesn't have aft weapons. No Gravity well, and no launch bays (quite significant because the hulk has about 11) less turrets and fewer hits. Although the Deadnot is faster, more maneuverable (LOL!) and has better armor.

The critical hit chart does kinda have some play, as the Hulk uses a different one.

Lets see some Smotherman action for an idea:

Hmmm... if I didn't miss something (which I'm almost certain I did) It comes out to about 452 pts. About what I was looking for. Honestly this needs to be compared to things like the PK

[RCgothic]

Sounds good to me. I like big and shooty, seems spectacularly orky to me.

On the subject of bombers (because I'm typing up the Ordnance Section), I really am not sure about this D2/D3 idea. It feels like a significant change to the core rules, and I'd would rather leave things as they are (perhaps just dropping turret suppression) than introduce a different rule that isn't quite satisfactory just for a minor improvement.

Also, on the subject of torpedoes I don't like the direction the HAs have gone with forcing 20mm bases and infinite torps per base. I would much rather retain the card markers, or failing that have the ALTERNATIVE to use 20mm bases, but only up to 3 torps per base.

[Taggerung]

The torpedo thing I actually like. It simplifies it a lot, and stream lines the game. Hunting around for a strength 2 torp marker or a strength 5 was just irritating lol

[Valhallan]

to reduce the ridiculous torp spread (i think thats what the HA wanted), just use a 20mm per 6 torps. so for example a ret would launch 2 bases (40mm wide salvo). alternativly you could use the old markers, but 1 torp marker counts as up to 2 torps... so a cobra would fire a single torp marker, a viper would fire 2. an IN cruiser would fire a 3.... its along the same lines... ish.

[RCgothic]

What was wrong with torp spread exactly? To get a significant spread you need 4 capital ships in a squadron with each other and in base to base, and the entire wave is eliminated by just 1 fighter, AND that still isn't ridiculously wide.