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Author Topic: List of flawed ships  (Read 290433 times)

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #675 on: February 07, 2011, 08:52:20 PM »
Valhallan, changing your language setting is actually more difficult than RC said. US systems only have US Eng installed. You actually have to go to your control panel, then region settings, then change keyboard layout, change keyboards, add then select UK eng. Afterwards you can do the setting in word... and anywhere. It appears as an icon near the clock on my system.

Problem with D6-2 is all that it does is make bombers worse against 1 turret, meh, the same against 2, and better against all others. We don't want that.

You're right, I don't know of a game system that rolls D2s, hmmmm.... think of it like lances ;)

Offline RCgothic

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #676 on: February 07, 2011, 08:56:54 PM »
D6-2 would be a vast improvement over what we currently have. I don't think toning down bombers against T2 is an absolute necessity. The requirement should be:

As much the same as possible, with more favour given towards solutions that are slightly weaker rather than slightly more powerful.

D6-2 meets that criterion.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #677 on: February 07, 2011, 09:02:04 PM »
Valhallan, changing your language setting is actually more difficult than RC said. US systems only have US Eng installed. You actually have to go to your control panel, then region settings, then change keyboard layout, change keyboards, add then select UK eng. Afterwards you can do the setting in word... and anywhere. It appears as an icon near the clock on my system.

Well of course there's no accounting for US systems being so confident that no-one could possibly want to use a different language setting. I can set my language as Vietnamese more easily than that.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #678 on: February 07, 2011, 09:22:24 PM »
Well of course there's no accounting for US systems being so confident that no-one could possibly want to use a different language setting. I can set my language as Vietnamese more easily than that.

Exactly. That's America for you. Hell, most people here hate the fact that people in our country happen to speak other languages.

Let's try a completely different system for bombers.... 1 attack but re-rolling to hit against armor.

So with our 6 bomber example they would do this damage to 5+ armor ships:

TurretsDamage
13
22.75
32.5
42.25
52
61.75

About what I'm looking for. it's almost exact to original rules with 2 turrets, worse against 1 turret, and better against all others.

The other option is +1 to hit against armor:
TurretsDamage
12.75
22.5
32.25
42
51.75
61.5

Which I actually kinda like better.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 09:25:41 PM by Plaxor »

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #679 on: February 07, 2011, 10:28:14 PM »
I kind of liked that d3 system proposed earlier by someone, cant remember it exactly.

What is a Hydra?

Finally, what if Necrons could repair hitpoints in the end phase, allowing something like every 2 or 3 repairs to count as a fixed HP?  It would encourage the kind of attack necrons were meant to die to:  mass firepower on one ship.  And it would kind of justify the high vp for actually killing the thing.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 10:30:35 PM by lastspartacus »

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #680 on: February 07, 2011, 10:42:06 PM »
Repairing Necrons.... no. They should be fine with where they're at.

A Hydra is an older Kar Duniash design, predecessor to the Dominator. It is basically the RT cruiser.

D3 was my idea. I liked it too, but it makes bombers more powerful overall. My bad....

We need a system which makes bombers able to do damage against high-turret ships, but as a compromise does less against low turret ships (so they would stay at about the same value) and in effect would make ABs more appealing.

Most thinks we're coming up with now aren't too elegant, but I like my +1 to hit idea. It can be rationalized that bombers seek out weak points in the armor.

Although the Damage potential decreases. As a bomber in original against 2 turrets could potentially do 4 hits. Bombers in this system are much more consistent, and less luck-based.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #681 on: February 07, 2011, 11:29:18 PM »
Because a Retribution can happily sit in the centre of an enemy fleet, trusting in its 4 shields to protect it, and put its full FP36 to good use. Whilst theoretically Invincible could do the same with its FP30, it wouldn't last long. Therefore Invincible is more likely to stand off, a role where good on-side firepower and range is crucial, and FP12 is not enough and the off-side FP15 is entirely wasted.

Somehow I don't think an enemy will just let you send a battleship in the middle of its lines. Unless you're opponent is kind enough to let you do it.

And so what if Invincible does match Retribution for firepower in certain situations? (which it doesn't.) That's the whole point of a battlecruiser! The firepower level is non-negotiable if this ship is to be included. It MUST be comparable to the mainline battleships.

The battlecruiser never was intended to be a mainline battleship even if it had comparable firepower. And again, FP12@60 cm is one step up in range compared to FP18@45 cm. You get an extra turn in shots at the expense of some firepower. Heck if you can get FP15@60 cm in an Invincible, then let's put that or even FP16 into the Retribution instead.

It originally did rival the Retribution (indeed outgunned it to the sides), but Retribution upped its game. Invincible needs to up its game also.

No, it does not, not with its current stats. If that's your issue, then let's just keep the 4th dorsal lance then.

Oh come on, it's not a complicated rule, so stop pretending that it is. Crits on 5+ with a +1 modifier only requires that you do the same thing as usual but count slightly different results. Rolling 2D6 per hit to see if you get a crit is an actual deviation from how things are usually gone. It takes 37 words to explain 2D6 Crits.
"The invincible class suffers criticals on a D6 roll of 5+ instead of 6+, and all rolls on the Critical Hit Chart have a +1 modifier."
26 words, crystal clear. This is the less complicated rule.

Did I mention anything about complicated? I am basically saying: "you're penalizing the Invincible twice with crits". That's 7 words that I hope you can understand.

As for which is tougher:
On a 10 hit ship with 2D6 standard crits, you'd expect 1.9 additional hits, assuming half of fire criticals are repaired before they do damage.

On a 12 hit ship with 5+ crits with +1 modifier, you'd expect 3.2 additional hits. So my proposal is still tougher than yours with 2 shields.

You seem to be missing the point of a true battlecruiser.

#1. As big as a battleship. 10 hits are NOT as big as a battleship. 12 hits are.

12 hits are not representative of just size. That is what you are missing or keep on ignoring. Your proposal appears tougher. However factor in the crits and how the battleship can easily blow up with a salvo. That's not tough.

#2. As powerful as a battleship. FP12/S3L/S6Torps are NOT as strong as a battleship.

The Retribution has had similar layout for the longest time and many people were saying it was good enough (though not me, I wanted FP18@60cm). Again, you keep ignoring this. Sorry, but with the exception of the torps, that is as strong as a battleship. And if you really want to make it as strong, then keep the 4th dorsal lance.

#4. Less well protected than a battleship. Having established #1, we're restricted on hits, whilst external armour is determined by IN Doctrine, so we're left with shields, turrets and special rules.

Exactly and while the battlecruiser is as big, it's certainly not as tough. To reiterate, 12 hits are not just representative of size. It's also representative of how tough a battleship is. That one needs to cause 6 hits for it to be considered crippled. That alone should prove to you that hits are primarily a function of toughness, secondary of size. The shields have been lowered. You don't want the armor profile changed and so the HP should be affected. 10 hits instead of the normal 12. Shields again should be 3 since the Invincible would have a battleship sized engine and should be able to afford the energy requirement esp with the lighter mass.  The Battle Barge is 6+ all around and can still have 3 shields so I think it can do it even with the 4th lance.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #682 on: February 07, 2011, 11:41:16 PM »
What is with this argument about the Invincible?

Offline Valhallan

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #683 on: February 08, 2011, 01:04:15 AM »
i donno. i piped up cuz i was posting drunk from the bar (ya know me... old saul tigh). i still think its finickier than the jovian and should be out. but hey, i like the ideas of you three (RC, A d'a, plax), so i put in my two cents.

d6-2 without turrets reducing attack runs is going to kill orks. period.
+1 to hit against armor is going to kill orks. period. also MSM eldar. (hitting on 3's c'mon!?)
where is sig when we need him. i wanna see the math on the wrongly played "fighters cancel out a turret on an enemy ship" fighter suppression. and the alternate of this where fighters cancel a turret on the target ship, up to the amount of bombers. again i'd do it... or playtest it... but PDE's call all my mathy attention...

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #684 on: February 08, 2011, 01:20:27 AM »
i donno. i piped up cuz i was posting drunk from the bar (ya know me... old saul tigh). i still think its finickier than the jovian and should be out. but hey, i like the ideas of you three (RC, A d'a, plax), so i put in my two cents.

d6-2 without turrets reducing attack runs is going to kill orks. period.
+1 to hit against armor is going to kill orks. period. also MSM eldar. (hitting on 3's c'mon!?)
where is sig when we need him. i wanna see the math on the wrongly played "fighters cancel out a turret on an enemy ship" fighter suppression. and the alternate of this where fighters cancel a turret on the target ship, up to the amount of bombers. again i'd do it... or playtest it... but PDE's call all my mathy attention...

Val... first of all you're drinking at 5pm... on a monday? Math and drinking don't mix! Haven't you been to college!?!?

Bombers get fewer attacks overall, but to compensate their attacks are more qualitative.

+1 vs 4+ armored vessel:

13.66
23.33
33
42.66
52.33
62

Won't kill orks, it's actually less mean against orks than the old system, where Orks took about twice the number of hits from bombers as IN/Chaos. Here it seems to be about 1/5 more. MSM eldar get their holofield save, but then again we'll be using MMS eldar, who have proppa defenses against bombers.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #685 on: February 08, 2011, 01:25:59 AM »
RC, you mentioned about Chaos getting love? They did, read 'Traitor fleets 1.1 (maybe 1.2 now)'

Relictor battleship (a fast battleship, basically the Conqueror/a battleship sized slaughter)
Nephilim Grand Cruiser (a long range GC)
3 CLs from BoN
Emasculator (called Cerberus)
Hecate
Havoc raider

All the ships were added only to the 'Maelstrom incursion fleet' as the fluff fleet opponent to 'Tartanus'. This was out of demand for CLs in chaos, so I built a list that was as friendly as possible to them, even forcing players to take them. (which works as a counterpart to Tartanus quite well)

They are of course only available in that fleet.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #686 on: February 08, 2011, 02:57:37 AM »
Updated the introduction doc. didn't add much just mostly made it all britishy.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #687 on: February 08, 2011, 06:37:38 AM »
Somehow I don't think an enemy will just let you send a battleship in the middle of its lines. Unless you're opponent is kind enough to let you do it.
Happens every time I play.

It originally did rival the Retribution (indeed outgunned it to the sides), but Retribution upped its game. Invincible needs to up its game also.

No, it does not, not with its current stats. If that's your issue, then let's just keep the 4th dorsal lance then.

The Invincible's current stats are FP12@60cm, S4L@60cm F/L/R, and 6T forward.
Retribution's original stats are FP12@60cm, S3L@60cm F/L/R and 9T

The only difference is one 60cm dorsal lance traded for 3T. Except Dauntless shows us 1 30cm lance is worth 2 torps, and we know that 1 lance@60 is worth 50% more than 1 lance at 30cm (4.5WBe vs 3WBe), so one lance at 60cm is equivalent to those 3 torps. (Plus additional fire arcs).

OMG! The Profiles WERE equivalent!

But Invincible isn't getting 4 dorsal lances, nuff said.

I'm not done responding, but I have something else to do. I'll cover the rest of your post in a couple of hours.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #688 on: February 08, 2011, 06:54:56 AM »
RC, Admiral, I would like you both to post your argument in a single post for how the Invincible should look in the bakka list (including how it should be restricted) Treat me as your audience, not each other.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #689 on: February 08, 2011, 07:51:27 AM »
My God, I hate transcribing things.... anyone want to do me a solid and help out?

I'm currently on page 12 of the online 2007 version of the rulebook. Basically you can see what format I would like things in. If someone could start on 'the Ordnance phase, or shooting phase' that would be a big help.