List of flawed ships

[Plaxor]

Yeah, I know. I was a bit unsure of the cost of the vessels, and did each page in a space of a few days. I'd love commentary on the costs of any new vessels.

Notes, for the IN document I need to rewrite the background for the 'tartanus' fleet list. This will be renamed 'Watchers' fleet list, and consists of all the sector fleets who observe the Ghoul Stars. Also the numbers of each vessel in the background are wrong. They should be much less.

Should be for Tartanus sector battlefleet specifically:

1 Vanquisher
1 Exorcist
1 Avenger
1 Jovian
1 Ignus

7 Hydras
8 Dominators
4 Lunars
2 Gothics
7 Dauntlesses
9 Enforcers

~30-50 escort-class vessels.

[RCgothic]

In Imperial vessels v1.1, you've called the Armageddon class Battlecruiser an Apocalypse class in its special rules box.

I also have to say that I'm extremely against including unofficial ships in any of the flawed ships documents. The point of the project was to fix what was broken, not to introduce new stuff, and the authority of the document will be severely weakened by including unofficial ships.

I'm all for the Battlefleet Tartanus, but it should be kept to a separate document.

[skatingtortoise]

In Imperial vessels v1.1, you've called the Armageddon class Battlecruiser an Apocalypse class in its special rules box.

I also have to say that I'm extremely against including unofficial ships in any of the flawed ships documents. The point of the project was to fix what was broken, not to introduce new stuff, and the authority of the document will be severely weakened by including unofficial ships.

I'm all for the Battlefleet Tartanus, but it should be kept to a separate document.

kind of like an armada book?

[Valhallan]

well RC, the flawed ships doc is already unofficial, so not too much different if unofficial ships are added. plax and i shot some ideas around about a tartanus/ultima ship list - since they get all the old leftover navy crap then its gonna be necessary to include some unofficial ships. even if just in fluff.

[Plaxor]

Yeah, RC. That was my original intention. However with the prodding of Sigoroth and others I began to include 'new' ships into the Dark Eldar, Necrons, and even Tau lists. The IN/Chaos don't need new ships, however it is somewhat unfair to not include them. However it works out fine so long as the new ships are contained to their own seperate listing.

It also allows for us to include ships that the HA could otherwise not include, as the HA are limited in that they can only include vessels that can be built with only super glue from GW models.

With this scope, I'm permitting reasonable converted vessels (I.e. someone with little conversion skill... like most players, could build them) Which is the reason that the Vanquisher doesn't have launch bays standard (as I'm still having trouble coming up with a way a person would do it...)

Flawed ships is unnoficial, and like Valhallan said, it doesn't change much to simply include them. Most ships... well actually all are derived from already semi-official sources. It's just a lot easier in the long run to incorporate these things now, rather than later, and besides, then we have the perfect hand of balancing them against each other, and giving everyone something new to play with.

A completely self-contained system, once I get through writing 'rules' and 'campaings/missions'. It will work out fine. However, one thing to note, is that once Horizon writes MMS 2.0 (and I get around to posing my thoughts/convincing bluedagger to play with MMS) then it will likely be included in this document as well.

Essentially we can create a 'mockup' of 2.0 that is widely in demand. With more readability and less confusion.

However a note on 'new ship desings'  they must be made from GW components. Using GW trademarks and names to promote non-GW products is the surest way to get sued.


Valhallan, what are your ideas?

[Plaxor]

So I wont be doing any updates for a week or two as I had to send in my computer for repair. Feel free to comment and stuff though. I'll still keep checking this.

[Plaxor]

Thinking about the 'wolfpack' list today.

The negative in leadership is a huge disadvantage and they don't really get anything for it (other than access to more extensive escorts). Even then an escort fleet is very sub-par. So I was thinking that escorts without a lance would receive a -5pt reduction in cost. Also the larger access to escorts is countered by the capital ship limitation, and overall lower LD of the fleet commander.

Of course allied escorts would follow their own rules and be costed normally, and with the allies rules wouldn't be able to use FC re-rolls/would count as 'mercenaries' meaning they would be forced to disengage if reduced to 1 model.

I demand Sigoroth's thoughts!

[Sigoroth]

Thinking about the 'wolfpack' list today.

The negative in leadership is a huge disadvantage and they don't really get anything for it (other than access to more extensive escorts). Even then an escort fleet is very sub-par. So I was thinking that escorts without a lance would receive a -5pt reduction in cost. Also the larger access to escorts is countered by the capital ship limitation, and overall lower LD of the fleet commander.

Of course allied escorts would follow their own rules and be costed normally, and with the allies rules wouldn't be able to use FC re-rolls/would count as 'mercenaries' meaning they would be forced to disengage if reduced to 1 model.

I demand Sigoroth's thoughts!

Well, in general I don't have many thoughts on this. Escorts are pretty crap overall, and most could use a flat reduction in price, and so an entire fleet of them has never appealed. This is perhaps apropos, as they really should only be a threat to lightly defended shipping or unescorted battleships. Which, of course, would be a nuisance but doesn't seem terribly interesting from a BFG perspective.

A -5pt reduction? You shall not use no double negatives. So why the lance discrimination? Just to make them rarer?

[Plaxor]

Exactly. I usually dont beleive in forcing people to take fluffy lists by saying you can't have more lance armed ships than not. I think it makes more sense to just make the more common variety slightly cheaper. Such as the rt cruiser. Rt players shouldnt be forces to take them more than other vessels because they are more common. This forces min-maxing and boring lists. However with a slightly lower cost (meaning that in my list it is the cheapest cruiser option along with tyrants) by a significant margin compared to the long range and lance armed vessels should make it more common. At least it or the tyrant.

Besides most players will still take likely one third to one half lance boats, so the reduction is more like 2 pts

[Plaxor]

Update, still haven't had my comp repaired, but at least it has given some time to work on my ultima fleet. I seriously think that making a vanquisher 'kar duniash' style might be the most Tedious and difficult thing I've ever done.

That aside, vanquisher will be going to pretty much as is for bfb, without dorsals much to my disappointment. However the lord Alexander will look more ultimawith domes in place of the dorsal/prow batteries.

Also I guess that I shoud include bakka into this doc, but it's quite similar to tartanus without the fdts. I hope that my flak idea gets more notice.

And the victory is just boring... Thematically the Jovian makes sense in bft, but the dominion does also.

Ah well. In the end bakka won't be much different, other than being able to take admech as reserves.

Kinda wish the victory was more interesting of a vessel. Like the omnisiahs victory in admech.

[Sigoroth]

You're right that the Victory is a boring ship, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that. So long as it becomes balanced then I see it much like the Siluria. A 'workhorse' type option to fill out the fleet list. I'm fine with that.

[RCgothic]

There's nothing wrong with a weak/boring battleship as long as it's correctly pointed.

[Plaxor]

All right. Got my computer back so I can start making updates.

I might hold off on the fleet lists until I can get a draft of the main rules.

[Plaxor]

So listing off intended rules changes: (at least things that I can think of)

Ship base size determined by class, not by choice.
Teleport attacks not restricted by hits so any capital ship can make them so long as they aren't crippled.
Blast Maker rules will become highly detailed and specific. Basically a slightly modded V.1
Bombers simplified to D3 attacks runs with no turret reduction. Fighta-bombers do D2 instead.
Boarding Torpedoes re-roll to hit against armor. Boarding torpedoes are all 30cm spd. (maybe not nid ones... will have to look when doing them... ugh) Need to check on DE boarding torpedoes, honestly they probably will just stay the same.
Eldar and Dark Eldar --> some version of MMS(or equivalent)
Teired BM removal (D6 up to 750 points, for every 500 points after that you add 1. I.E. D6+1 at 751-1250, D6+2 at 1251-1750 etc.)
Deletion of 'Advanced' and 'Basic' rules sections, now just one.
AC fighter escort special.


Possible Other rule inclusions
Resilient Ordinance back to 1.0 (so able to move still after being attacked.)
Non-fleet commander characters able to make LD checks after a leadership test is failed.


Let me know about any other basic rules changes.

Fleets will be put on hold a little for now. It will give me time to see what comes of BFB, and perhaps BFK.

Other noted changes: (just as a placeholder)
Jovian Axed form BFT, or moved, or something.
Dominion instigated in BFT, or something.

[Valhallan]

base size: you'd still need 10+ hits for the big base. don't limit orks to small bases... unless you call their kroozers BB's... but then you screwed the slowpokes even more on turning.

if boarding torps reroll vs armor, then what do CWE boarding torps get?

non fleet commander characters.... try adding in the gryphon knight idea from MMS. that way select fleets could have access to more reliable SO fleet wide. rather than throw off balance with chaos and bastion IN swarming tones of sub commanders.... call the imperial ones commissars.

after the whole bakkan debacle, yeah the jovian should be out from tartanus. besides its just an exorcist... but worse. dominion's cool. its my favorite ship. please investigate further.

on your other post about the light BB 'vanquisher' at 290... well a lite BB should be like a grand cruiser. The big V is kinda between an unfixed ret and vengeance (with torps) in Firepower, but its not at all un-conflicted in its line breaker role. its 15cm move isn't really a hindrance, it just makes it blunt: point towards large formation of enemies and move forward. without the dorsals it should just aff off the bat. i'd put it at 300, and take it every time.