List of flawed ships

[Plaxor]

Just finished the Imperial Fleets PDF. It's rather  pretty, although I made a few clerical mistakes. I'll go through it tommorow and fix them.

You can see the file by clicking on the link in my signature.

[horizon]

Check this thread for a d/l by Brother Argos regarding full AdMech list & profiles:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/sg/forum/index.php?topic=1707.0

[Plaxor]

That is fine work. Someone has love for the admech.

[lastspartacus]

Some necron thoughts.  Reactive hull being exactly as the Kraken defenses?

AAF makes them harder to hit of they roll a 4 or more?

[Plaxor]

I'm actually surprised GW didn't just go with a 4+ save for every ship with reactive armor. Would've made the list work more consistently.

I imagine this would be fine to do for both the escorts and the Shroud, which both spend most of their time braced, however the Scythe widely renown for being the greatest ship ever, should either lose something to make the trade, or have its cost increased.

I don't think Necrons deserve any bonus for AAF, even though they are fast, it would make them even more gamebreaking in missions.

Note that I combined all my 'Flawed ships' threads into this one, as it seems to have lost interest and I don't want/need to be clogging up the BFG discussion board. So please post in here from now on for any of your comments.

[Plaxor]

Necrons:

Would anyone be opposed if this happened.... Reactive armor on Necron ships becomes 4+ and the Scythe goes to an even 300 points?

I think that this is the easiest way to fix internal issues in the Necron fleet. Rather than increasing FP on the Raiders and increasing hits on the Shroud. A 4+ save would make these two things less likely to brace (which is ultimately the source of their firepower issues).

Like I mentioned the only one it causes issues for is the Scythe, which most people consider 2 scythes better than a tombship for not much more points. Increasing them to 300 would make the Shroud more appealing, as well as the Tombship.

Also I think that the Sepulcher should be available to Scythes, but still be a 0-1 and must be on a Tombship if available.

The Raiders 6+ armor is negated by the fact that they have Front only weaponry. Making them have more or less 5+ armor equivalent and basically no shields, so 4+ should work fine with them.

Also I may include Sigoroth's ship if he can convince me to. However this would mean that that vessel would need to have its' cost increased as well, to 400 (possibly up to 425) points.

Orks:

Pretty Close to done on these, I'm still considering making the Battleships into a single class. Any Comments? Also Capital ships now are able to take Power Rams/Drills etc. (all 1 option) for +5 points sacrificing prow Heavy guns. This would cause 1 point of auto-damage during a ram or during a boarding action (during the movement phase to prior to when you roll your boarding dice.)

Claws, well there is some talk of making these cause H&R attacks. I actually kind of feel that they should work similarly to feeder tentacles but only during a board/ram. I.E. when you perform one of these tasks you roll a d6, on a 1,2,3 it causes that many H&R attacks on the vessel, on a 4-6 it causes a point of damage and a H&R attack. These would replace P/S heavy guns on KK's, Hammers and CLs (and Battleships if I go that route, but for some reason I don't think that even Warlords would use a battleship this crudely). This upgrade would cost +5 points.

CL: I think I had my logical statline up at some point, I can't remember where I put it.... hrmmm... anyways it could upgrade its speed to 25 (as essentially it would be a large escort, and half have 25 the other half have 20, I may have it at 6 hits & 25cm standard, but can up its hits to 8 but its' speed goes to 20.)

Other thoughts... Well the Grunt I never really liked the idea of, but to make it worthwhile it should have BV4 and lose its ram ability. Probably the second turret too.

IN: I know I kinda rushed through the Inquisition Document, however there are a few thoughts; It could be changed so that you don't upgrade a specific Inquisitor (I.E. Xenos, Hereticus, Malleus) Instead you get one depending on who you're fighting. So you would get a Xenos one against; Necrons, Tau, Orks, Nids, Eldar, Dark Eldar. A Hereticus one against: IN, AdMech, & Rogue Traders. A Malleus one against Chaos. This makes it a little less character driven, and the rules would have to be changed slightly, So a Hereticus Inquisitor would have something like a -1 leadership modifier to any human ships. Malleus could keep his current rules, and Xenos would still do his Holofield thing and maybe something else (Left shift on the gunnery table for his ships against Xenos vessels?)

In this case every vessel would have the 'random tech' thing that Xenos Inquisitors have, as they are often the best equipped in the Galaxy! and would likely increase their points cost overall to 125.

Note: I did get rid of the line that Inquisitors may be the fleet commander of any Imperial fleet. This didn't make sense to me, as every fluff description of inquisitors commandeering Navy vessels didn't obliterate their command structure. Instead the Inquisitor would just sit on the bridge and let the Admiral/Captain/whoever command. If the Commander didn't do what was asked however naturally the Inquisitor would bolter him and take control.

I think the idea is similar to if the President were to walk onboard an aircraft carrier. Certainly he would have the right to tell the crew and captain what to do, but he probably knows nothing about naval combat and would be an extreme detriment to the ship.


Tau:

Kor'Or'Vesh and Kor'vattra seperated. There is some detail work to do on the Kor'Or'Vesh though. Otherwise Kor'vattra seem done though, with the two changes they should be perfectly viable. 

No one did comment on if the Messenger should have its limitations removed. Any thoughts?

Also I want to hear some peoples thoughts on Kor'Or'Vesh, however this could bring some fire...

Chaos:

I've decided that there should be an all Daemonship fleet option, which would be interesting. It would be a great way to present the special things from the 'powers of chaos' document.

I also think that daemonships should be removed from the 13th crusade list if we do this, and should be an 'ally-in' type deal. It would make more sense this way, as they feel like allies anyways, and the abilities poised in the 'Powers of Chaos' make more sense on daemonships. Not only that but it would be kind of a Chaos version of an Admech list. Not only that but it resembles 40k so much better.

Possibly in this version the cost of being a daemonship would be decreased.

Dark Eldar:

I think we have our decision on how to include a DE CG. Just make it an upgraded version of a Torture. Also I will likely include the DE CL from the book of Nemesis.

Eldar & CWE

Will an Eldar Hero ever be neccessary if the FoA goes to Void Dragon GC? If not then I will likely just delete it from the rules.

Nids...

Well... nothing on nids right now sorry. I don't know what needs done for them, if anything?

[lastspartacus]

As far as the necrons go, I do feel a 4+ would help make shroud and smaller ships worth it.  It never made sense how easily they fell compared to shielded ships.  However, to compensate, have BFI just make them reroll the 4+ instead of going to 2+.

As to AAF, why should they lose it?

[Plaxor]

No, not lose AAF, just not get a bonus save for going on AAF.

LS, I think I lost you somewhere along the lines....

BFI on Necron ships turns their save to a 2+, however the idea is to make the regular save for escorts 4+, as well as the cruisers, so that the 'living metal' can be standardized as a rule.

This should make escorts much more viable, as they die much easier than a normal escort for more points when not on BFI, so most people spend their time doing that. Similarly with the shroud.

[Plaxor]

Daemon Fleet: (basically includes all chaos ships in the normal daemonship fasion, however can have these upgrades per mark)

Fleet Commander:

Herald of Chaos: Ld+1, 1RR.  50 points
May purchase RRs
1 extra RR 25 points
2 extra RRs 75 points
3 extra RRs 150 points

Must be on the largest class of ship.

Ships have similar purchase structure to Chaos fleets:

0-12 cruisers, 1 GC for every 3 cruisers, 1 heavy cruiser for every 2 cruisers, 1 battleship for every 3 cruisers. Escorts: any number

Cost of ships are unchanged (including Daemon upgrade)
Battleships +50 points
Grand Cruisers +30 points
Heavy Cruisers +25 points
Cruisers +20 points
Escorts +5 points (dirt cheap as they don't get all the benefits of being daemonized)

Cost of Marks Unchanged, any ship may take a mark (save escorts of course.)
Tzeentch +25 pts
Nurgle +35
Slannesh +25
Khorne +20

Any ship with the appropriate mark may have any of these upgrades;

Tzzentch:
Warp Beasts +25 points
Once per battle, a single enemy ship within 15cm takes D6 hits in the end phase (shields have no effect).

Strand of Fortune +25 points
Once per battle it automatically passes a command check or leadership test- no roll required.

Vortex of Chaos +10 points
At the end of each movement phase, any ship within 15cm of this vessel (friend or foe!) must place a blast marker in base contact with it. Note that this doesn't have any effect whilst the ship is spectral.

Vagaries of fate +10 points
This ship may choose to roll an LD test to ignore the damage caused by any single attack source once per game. I.E. from a squadron shooting at it, or a boarding action etc. If the LD test is failed then the ship takes double damage instead (with additional chances for criticals etc.) Note that this doesn't prevent blast markers from being produced on the ships base from shooting

Nurgle:
Hives of Nurgle +10 points
vessels within 15cm do not benefit from a left column shift when firing at it.

Miasma of Pestilence +10 points
the Nurgle player may place a single Blast marker anywhere along the vessels course after each move.

Ark Of pestilence +10 points
Any ship subject to a boarding action by the vessel suffers a fire critical automatically.

Khorne:
Warp Blade +20 points
when conducting a boarding action cause D3 extra critical damage rolls. The vessel has an additional D3 teleport H&R attack runs. It also may launch an additional D3 assault boats if it has launch bays, but only when launching assault boats. I.E. it must launch only assault boats to do this. If it has torpedoes, when launching boarding torpedoes it receives an additional D3 to the salvo.

Slannesh:
Veil of lust +20 points
Ship firing on this vessel using the gunnery table suffers a right-column shift before any other modifiers are applied.

Sirens Summon +25 points
Enemy ships starting their movement within 15cm of a vessel with Siren‟s Summon must test against their modified leadership. If it fails, it cannot shoot, launch ordinance, perform boarding actions, perform teleport attacks and essentially will do nothing other than move/perform any special orders that they've already passed (I.E. if they did CTNH then they may still turn twice.)
Note that this doesn't work when the ship is spectral.

Undivided:
Icon of chaos: 10 points
The ship rolls 2d6 when performing teleport attacks and chooses which die counts.


Note on Special rules:
Haunting: These vessels of course count as disengaged. Therefore if at any time every vessel in the daemon players fleet has visited the table and the only vessels left under his control are 'haunting' then the battle ends and every daemonship counts as disengaged for the purposes of VPs.

[Plaxor]

Some minor changes to CWE added; this was to simplify the list.

Eldar Hero AXED. (kind of a pointless person anyways) fleets reserve just as normal. Naturally any shadow prince or supreme admiral that was able to convince the other group to work with them would be a hero anyways.

Dragonships & Void Dragon purchasable one a 1:1 basis with wraithships. Eliminated the rule for you to get an 'extra' dragonship if you have your admiral on it, and the Void Dragon counts as a dragonship for purchases, NOT just one that you can buy without any limitations.

So it will look like this:

Battlecruisers & Grand Cruisers
You may have 1 battlecruiser or grand cruiser for every cruiser in your fleet
0-1 Void Dragon
Dragonship
Ghosty Dragonship

Cruisers (any number)
Wraithship
Ghosty Wraithship

Fair? Ray?

[horizon]

Doh no.

1 Dragonship per 2 Wraithships. It's a battlecruiser!

Void Dragon 1 per 1000pts. Or 1 per admiral in a CWE list.

Void Dragon not in CE list.

Hero axed back in!!

Hero:
makes reserve rules into a 1:2 basis instead 1:3.

It is cool. Cool things make your dice better,

[Plaxor]

So I put the hero back in because he is cool? Can't I just make it a +50 point upgrade to make any character 'Heroic'? Maybe a +25?

Also you're right about fleet composition. For some reason I thought that my CWE opponent ran 2 dragonships, 2 wraithships and a FoA at 1500. The current list makes it seem as though you can do that (with the admiral and the bonus dragonship and all)


Oh and I wrote in that Wraithships can buy Vampires at +5 points. Tell me if you don't like that idea.

[Plaxor]

Line that I just wrote in the Eldar PDF:

"Your Prince may be considered a hero for +25 points."

....corsairs are looking a little more disney than originally intended.

[Plaxor]

Horizon, I'm wondering about an internal balance issue between the Void Dragon and Dragonship

So a Void Dragon gains; Aspect warriors, +2 hits, vampires, 2wbs, 2 pulsars (more or less 8wbs) for 60 points.

Now a Dragonship can gain aspect warriors and vampires for a total of +30 points. So this gap feels more like 30 points.... for 10 wbs and 2 hits? shouldn't this be closer to 100 points? Like going from a wraithship to a dragonship is +2 hits, +8 wbs +2 launch bays. Similar layout for 100 points.

I know in MMS you made the Dragonship have 8 hits, which fixed this internal balance issue. I feel that the simplest thing to do is force it to upgrade Aspect warriors and Vampires, instead of having them automatically.

However this would mean that the Void Dragon is overpowered. When it seems more likely that the Dragonship/Wraithship are both underpowered.

So comparing CWE ships to CE ships:

A Wraithship is like an Aurora, but with 5+ armor for +20 points. However it loses 5cm speed to each band. Shouldn't this be closer to 10 points?

A Dragonship is like an Eclipse but with +1 pulsar and 5+ armor. For +10 points, this is understandable as it is a CB. However it does make the Wraithship look so much worse.

A Void Dragon is kinda Like a Void Stalker, it has nearly the same weapon layout, (total eq. fp 24 with 4 launch bays). However it doesn't have L/R weaponry, and is 2 hits less. It gains aspect warriors, vampires and 5+ armor. for 60 points. This seems beautiful in comparison. However this would seem reasonable if it didn't have vampires or the aspect warriors.

So anyways what seems reasonable from this comparison is to make Wraithships cost 150, and Void Dragons not have vampires and aspect warriors automatically.

I think this will do wonders for the internal balance of the CWE fleet, as it is one of those where it is a race to buy restricted ships (the Void Dragon and Dragonship). Whereas with these changes it won't hurt so much if you don't build specifically to get these two vessels.

[lastspartacus]

Necrons turning while on AAF could go, imo.

And, I dunno, the fluff talks about how necron ships come in going so insanely fast they don't even pick up on scanners until they slow down, so they could literally pass by an imperial ship at speeds comparible only to warp travel, and not be noticed.  Just seems youd get some bonus is all.  Just an idea though.  Maybe 'if they go an extra 40cm or more on their AAF rolls they cant shoot or be shot at.'