September 12, 2024, 06:16:47 AM

Author Topic: List of flawed ships  (Read 290160 times)

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #390 on: December 14, 2010, 11:08:44 PM »
I think it's too perfect.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #391 on: December 14, 2010, 11:55:19 PM »
So the only difference between a Dominator and a Tyrant is going to be 10pts either way? Much as I'd like a FP12 Tyrant with Torps for 180pts, that doesn't leave enough clear air between the Dominator and the tyrant.

If this is really the way the Tyrant is going to go, it has to have its Nova Cannon option deleted.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #392 on: December 15, 2010, 12:32:47 AM »
I'd personally prefer the Dominator get an option to switch the NC for torps at -10 points. Then the Tyrant keep its broadsides at FP10@45cm at 190 points and give it the NC upgrade at +20. There you go, delineation emphasized.

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #393 on: December 15, 2010, 01:21:21 AM »
But but but Sigoroth.... :)

So you go by the doctrine that the IN would design:
All WB (Tyrant)
All Lance (Gothic)
Mix (Lunar)

for gunnery/line cruisers?

Why didn't they do it in the past then? The Murder designs etc?

I'm not arguing the idea, just thinking out loud.



Because rather then designing ships in a sensible manner for combat with a role in mind and then assign them stats, they assigned them stats and then designed the ships. 
non nobis domine non nobis sed nomine tua da na glorium

Offline Valhallan

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #394 on: December 15, 2010, 02:55:18 AM »
well, if the first post is still accurate/updated: CB's will be a bit cheaper, so that 45cm band will be a lil less of an issue.

to really follow the fluff on the dominator's rarity (except in Seg. Ultima!): perhaps. 180 point tyrant, torps, 12WB at 30, no range upgrade, no NC upgrade (just like the gothic. the lunar still has the option 'cuz it's the jack). meanwhile. Dom at 190 with the 6WB at 45.

now i'll duck and cover from the repercussions.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #395 on: December 15, 2010, 06:05:48 AM »
to really follow the fluff on the dominator's rarity (except in Seg. Ultima!): perhaps. 180 point tyrant, torps, 12WB at 30, no range upgrade, no NC upgrade (just like the gothic. the lunar still has the option 'cuz it's the jack). meanwhile. Dom at 190 with the 6WB at 45.

Most disgusting suggestion I've ever seen.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #396 on: December 15, 2010, 06:19:45 AM »
My God. That is just weird.

No, things here shouldn't be balanced absolutely just to fluff, we shouldn't make the Dominator a crappy option just because it's supposed to be rare. If a segmentum ultima fleet was written, then the ship would then have issues there.

The point is to make all options about equal. Making a player not have any 'obvious choices' as per what he should take.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #397 on: December 15, 2010, 12:59:14 PM »
**WARNING: Long post ahead, digest slowly**

So your solution is to instead make the Tyrant a dead ship which is contrary to fluff? Go back and read my pros/cons post again. This is the best solution.

Need a 12WB, 180 pt, torp boat accessible to all lists. Giving the Dom the option to drop the NC does not do this. If you allow it in all lists as well as give it the option of torps or NC then it would need to have the NC version cost 200 pts. Either way the Dom would become very common and the Tyrant would get even more buried than it currently is. Currently some people take it because they want WB/torps. Even when you drop the cost by 5 pts it's going to lose some players because the Dom will have torps.

Currently the Dom is over represented and the Tyrant is under represented.


Let's look at what options we currently have available.

We have the current Dom: 12 WB, NC, 190 pts - limited list availability
We have the base Tyrant: 10WB, 4@45cm, torps, 180 pts
We have range Tyrant: 10WB, 45cm, torps, 190 pts
We have NC Tyrant: 10WB, 4@45cm, NC, 200 pts
We have range/NC Tyrant: 10WB, 45cm, NC, 210 pts


The base Tyrant is utter rubbish. The only reason to take it would be its cheaper cost and wanting to have WBs/torps. You still lose out however. No, assuming that we're going to make a 12WB + torp base option for 180 pts somewhere along the line (be it a modified Dom or Tyrant) we can simply delete this option, as it's pointless. So let's look at those options again without mixed range Tyrant.

We have the current Dom: 12 WB, NC, 190 pts - limited list availability
We have range Tyrant: 10WB, 45cm, torps, 190 pts
We have range/NC Tyrant: 10WB, 45cm, NC, 210 pts
We have new base cruiser: 12 WB, torps, 180 pts


These will be the options open to a player should we replace the useless mixed range Tyrant option with the much desired WB base ship. So saying that there will be not enough difference between class A or class B blah blah is just a way of saying that the options are not so fantastic. If this is true then the existing options only lose their attraction by comparison to the addition of a more desirable option (WB base line ship).

I have no problem with the attraction of those options going down. To me there was never any attraction for the base Tyrant, at lowered cost or not. The same goes for the range upgraded Tyrant. I do not even want the NC. No, the reason I always like the Dominator best was because it was a WB line cruiser. It also had nice synergy between its broadsides and NC, but a NC Lunar can get that too (albeit at a greater cost).

So, with the completed set of line cruisers (all lance, all WB, mix) then the NC/range options become just that; options. Flavour. A place to dump extra points. This is a natural consequence of giving us the WB line cruiser and is fine to me.

If we make it as some sort of alteration to the Dominator then we will have a problem. It will not be available to all lists. We could add the Dominator to the other lists. Then the cheap NC is no longer an attribute of a select few lists and becomes available to all lists. So then we'd have to drop it, and cost the NC option at the full +20 pts. You could do all that, but it's a lot of changes and is a long way from the fluff.

If we make it as a straight replacement to the base mixed range Tyrant (ie, simply replacing 4WB@45cm with 6WB@30cm) then we make the Dominator the rare ship, as per fluff, have the 12 WB torp ship available to all lists, allowing us to keep the cheap NC Dom available to select fleets (BBB, segmentum Ultima), give different options (10 pts for range, 10 pts for NC or 30 pts for both) and require a minimal adjustment to fluff. Namely that the range upgrade was a refit to an existing class rather than being built from the ground up.

This latter option is by far the best. All the objections that people are raising are either minor objections such as fluff, which this change is better for anyway or are objections based upon consequences that will occur simply by making a 12WB, torp boat at 180, regardless of whether it is the Tyrant or Dom that gets it (ie, devaluing of other options).

This just leaves whether or not giving the 12WB torp boat is a good idea to begin with. Well, logically it's fine, it's the equivalent of either the Gothic or Lunar. Both those ships are taken often and form the backbone of the IN fleet, and a basis of comparison for nearly every other ship in the game. Presumably the decision between WBs and lances is a personal one, since they're equivalent in value. As it stands people often choose the Dominator anyway, simply because they want the WB broadside. This raises some problems, since some of those that do this actually want the torps and some are overloading on NCs deliberately. This latter scenario is not unbalanced I think, but is probably unfluffy and some people have a problem with it. The people that want the former should not be mistaken for those that want the latter. Those that take the Tyrant because they just want WBs and torps (not range or NC) should not be penalised the reduced firepower for doing so.

So yes, there is a strong case for granting the 12WB torp boat. The very best way of achieving this is making it standard on the Tyrant, as it solves all solvable problems. If you really want to you could make the Tyrant 10WB at 45cm standard for 190 pts with the option being a downgrade to 12WB at 30cm for -10 pts, but this is just semantics.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #398 on: December 15, 2010, 01:50:17 PM »
My only concern is that there is now no difference between a NC Tyrant and a Dominator, other than a 10pt difference.

How do you physically tell the difference? You can't. (I know this is already a problem and not a result of changes.) Is there even a point to having a NC option on the Tyrant, if you can just reserve in a Dominator for less? What is even the point in having two profiles?

I agree on the need for a WB12 Torp boat. If you're going to make the two so close together in role, you MUST keep a way of telling the two apart. If the Tyrant can never have a NC, then it will never be identical to a Dominator which can never have torps.

Tyrant to 180pts FP12@30cm base, with option for FP10@45 for +10pts, NO NC option.

Offline Vaaish

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #399 on: December 15, 2010, 02:43:36 PM »
Actually, I don't mind having the base tyrant with the split battery ranges. Yes, it means people always take the upgrade, but it does fit the fluff that the original tyrant wasn't that capable at long range and that it was eventually upgraded with salvaged batteries.
-Vaaish

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #400 on: December 15, 2010, 03:43:34 PM »
My only concern is that there is now no difference between a NC Tyrant and a Dominator, other than a 10pt difference.

How do you physically tell the difference? You can't. (I know this is already a problem and not a result of changes.) Is there even a point to having a NC option on the Tyrant, if you can just reserve in a Dominator for less? What is even the point in having two profiles?

I agree on the need for a WB12 Torp boat. If you're going to make the two so close together in role, you MUST keep a way of telling the two apart. If the Tyrant can never have a NC, then it will never be identical to a Dominator which can never have torps.

Tyrant to 180pts FP12@30cm base, with option for FP10@45 for +10pts, NO NC option.

Well, yes, as you noted there is no model difference currently, so that doesn't change. Secondly, some people may want the range upgrade and the NC. I certainly wouldn't, but I think some people do take both. So the proposed change is the one with the least impact on how people have to alter their fleets. A Dom is still a Dom and for those that want the range, the Tyrant is just 5 pts cheaper. For those that didn't take the range then it's 5 pts cheaper and more powerful. Least possible impact on those that like current options.

Removing the NC from the Tyrant would upset those that run Armageddon or Bastion lists with NC upgraded Tyrants, as well as those that run the range + NC variant. It also would mean that we should remove the option from the Lunar too. Given that more and more ships would be refitted with NCs as time goes on, it's hard to justify such a removal.

The point of the two different profiles is to easily restrict ones usage in other lists. In those lists plentiful and cheap NCs might be an advantage over other disadvantages, such as the absence of certain ship types. Also, the cheap NC is not actually unbalanced. The more expensive NC is so because it's purely optional and can be put on several different ships (AdMech Gothics can have them, making for a total of 9 lances + a NC!).

So, you could advocate a removal of NC options from the Tyrant (and likely other ships) so as to better differentiate the Dominator and Tyrant, however, this would be an additional change, and could be more upsetting the altered profile. I don't mind doing so, as it further differentiates the lists and gives the AdMech a more unique advantage. However, I'm certain some people have NC + range Tyrants they'd have to change and also NC Lunars they'd have to remodel.

If that is the consensus I'd be fine with it. Just remember that it'll make a bigger splash and that it's a separate change from the 12WB torp boat issue, since there's currently no way of distinguishing between a Dom or NC Tyrant anyway. Explaining this loss of option is another thing altogether.

Actually, I don't mind having the base tyrant with the split battery ranges. Yes, it means people always take the upgrade, but it does fit the fluff that the original tyrant wasn't that capable at long range and that it was eventually upgraded with salvaged batteries.

Except that fluff never made any sense to begin with. If the ship was built from the ground up then why the hell didn't they just whack on all 45cm guns? The salvaged Chaos guns excuse doesn't make sense. Sure, that might explain why the ship could get +6WB@45cm as opposed to just +4, but it doesn't explain why they didn't just make the originals 8WB@45cm. Nor does it explain why they didn't just replace the entire broadside with salvaged Chaos guns making 12WB@45cm (even though Chaos don't have this the precedent for the possibility lies with both the 6WB@45cm of the Carnage and also the fact that the Tyrant upgrades the range on 6WBs from salvaged Chaos guns). In short, stupid fluff. Just rewrite it to say it's an upgrade, or that some ships were overhauled with a new system, blah blah. Pointless ship is pointless.

Offline horizon

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #401 on: December 15, 2010, 07:01:16 PM »
If we go this route, hmmm, dunno. It feels all so.... perfect... so articulate.

Offline Valhallan

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #402 on: December 15, 2010, 07:34:44 PM »
thanks for some backup sig.

@horizon. aren't we trying to fix issues with flawed ships? feeling perfect is a good thing.

I'm very much liking how things are going:
Lunar 6wb @30, 2lance @30, torps, nc option -> Geddon 6w@45, 2lance @45, torps, nc option (correct?)
Gothic 4L @ 30, no NC option .....(imho there should be CB here but whatev')
'tyrant' 12wb@30, torps -> overlord 12wb@45, torps
dictator 6wb@30, 2LB/side -> mars 6wb@45, 2lb/side.

the above listing just looks good, logical, simple. all nice things in game design.

______
for balancing the *look* of the above, i think (but don't really care either way) the Ty should have no NC option (though it will piss off people who glue those things on...) simply because its opposite counterpart - the Gothic - doesn't have the option either.

as to my previous post about the Dom with the retrofit as standard - I take that part back. I was thinking it would push the tyrant more into the main stream, BUT if we just have the Ty as a cheaper base option for a 12WB@30 ship (with range upgrade) The dom will probably fade back a little bit.


Offline horizon

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #403 on: December 15, 2010, 07:44:44 PM »
It feels to perfect from a background view not balance feel.

I mean I would go for this:

Lunar, Gothic & Dominator as are (no change)

Tyrant: 190pts str10wb @45cm (torps, NC for +20).

Thus no base str12 cruiser.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: List of flawed ships
« Reply #404 on: December 15, 2010, 08:38:57 PM »
Ok, I'm definitely supporting this core line up:


WBs:
Tyrant 180pts, FP12@30cm, Option for FP10@45cm for +10pts

Mix:
Lunar 180pts, 2L&FP6@30cm, Option for NC for +20pts

Lances:
Gothic 180pts, 4L@30cm

Carrier:
Dictator 210pts, 2LB&FP6 @30cm

Artillery:
Dominator 190pts,

Therefore if a non-Dominator list wants to take NCs, it has to go the Lunar way - Tyrants with NC are Dominators. I really am against the NC option for the Tyrant - apart from not being able to tell it apart from the Dominator apart, unlike at present the Tyrant's new profile of FP12@30cm is far more synergistic than FP10 at either profile, and I don't think 10pts is enough of a separation to justify the existence of the Dominator under those circumstances.

As for Battlecruisers, the reason there isn't a Gothic BC with either dorsal lances or WBs is that the ship would require 10turrets and there are only 8 in a cruiser box, so GW would never condone it.