List of flawed ships

[Sigoroth]

Just reducing the Tyrant to 180? No, that's not enough. Make it 12WB@30cm with a 10 pt 'upgrade' to 10WB@45cm. So people wanting a WB + torp ship can have one. People wanting NC instead of torps take the Dominator. People wanting a NC + longer ranged WBs take a 210 pt Tyrant. This makes the most sense. After all, the reason the Dom is left out of non-Gothic lists is because it's a standard cruiser with a cheap NC, not because it has 12WBs. Let the Tyrant become the standard choice for WBs and the Dom will automatically become more exotic as people have a decent alternative to the Dom and so aren't forced to take the NC. Solves both the NC problem and the Tyrant problem.

[Plaxor]

I would advocate for keeping some of the wbs at 45, it is the disadvantage of the unupgraded version to be slightly confused. It is also in the fluff. As well I would only have 11 wbs total, trying to keep it different from the dominator is somewhat important.

[Sigoroth]

I would advocate for keeping some of the wbs at 45, it is the disadvantage of the unupgraded version to be slightly confused. It is also in the fluff. As well I would only have 11 wbs total, trying to keep it different from the dominator is somewhat important.

I think keeping it different from the Dominator is not important at all. Here's the rub. 2 lances = 6WBs. This is seen from the Lunar/Gothic. Both are costed the same and considered equivalent and the choice of which to take is merely down to taste. IN players want that exact same capability with WBs. So they take the Dom. The Dom however costs slightly more and trades a weapon system. This is fine in itself, it's balanced and all, but it throws up some problems.

The new weapon system is supposed to be rare, the Dom is a base ship, and if you prefer WB armed base ships you could be called beardy for spamming a 'rare' weapon like the NC, when in fact what you were trying to spam was simply your flavour of base armament (all WB instead of all lance or a mixture). Secondly, while balanced, you may actually prefer torpedoes. So having to take the NC, cheap as it is, is an inconvenience. Thirdly, the Dom is dropped from subsequent fleet lists (Bastion, Armageddon), not because it is armed with WBs, but because it is armed with a NC. So those fleets can take a Tyrant, but no Dom.

What we want is a 12WB@30cm, 180 pt ship, armed with torpedoes available to every list. Since the Tyrant is poo no matter which way you look at it, is available to every fleet list, and needs changing ... well this seems the ideal solution.

All those players with Doms in their list that want torps will simply clip the NCs off their Doms and call them Tyrants. All those players currently with Tyrants in their lists will simply pay the 10 pt upgrade to keep the range (turning out 5 pts cheaper than what they currently play). All those players with NC upgraded Tyrants will likewise keep them as they are, paying 5 pts less for what they get. Those players that don't want the range, and liked the NC on their Doms will just keep their Doms.

Those players using Bastion or Armageddon lists will get access to a 12WB base cruiser. The Dominator will become as rare in peoples lists as it is in the fluff. Those players that turn up with a fleet full of Doms are actually being beardy, rather than just preferring WBs, making munchkins easier to spot. This solution solves all problems.

[Plaxor]

Why not make it 12 and have 4wbs at 45cm? it keeps the flavor, and we can return it's cost to 185 even.

[Plaxor]

Please vote for the things where your name is listed.

Chaos:
Warmasters: 50 point ld8 option: Horizon,Baron, commander
Make normal Ld9 Horizon, Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, commander
largest class instead of most expensive: Horizon, Sigoroth, Baron

IN:
Avenger cost (give a value, current proposed, 190, 210, 200): Sigoroth, Horizon, Baron, Lastspartacus
Tyrant: Make wbs str12: Horizon, Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Comander, Lastspartacus

Astartes:
Add torp version at str. 3 (trade for lbs): Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Lastspartacus, Commander
add carrier version for 15 points: Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Commander, Lastspartacus
Add option to swap lbs with str 3 F bombard: Admiral D Artagnan, RCgothic, Commander, Lastspartacus
Sedito Oprimere: Make resemble BB with 3 lb: Horizon, Admiral D, Rcgothic, Commander, Lastspartacus
Battlebarge: +1 turret/shield: Commander
Strike Cruiser: Sheilds at 2, launch bay at 1: Commander, Lastspartacus
Rapid strike vessels: Delete: Admiral D Artagnan, Commander, Lastspartacus
Gladius: Reduce by 5 points: Horizon, Commander, Lastspartacus, Admiral D
Nova: Reduce by 5 points: Horizon, Commander, Lastspartacus, Admiral D

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I still don't get what the Ld9 Chaos WM is for (which list, I mean).

Tyrant I'm with Sigoroth. Makes the most sense really.

I've always been pro torp swapping the LBs/BCs for SCs and made the Assault SC before so you now know where I stand there. I'm ok with Str 3 BC replaceing the LB on the SC but only at that strength.

RSVs, I don't mind deleting or making them equal to the other SM escorts in cost. My reasoning is mainly for the people who cannot purchase the SM escorts. Or maybe just use the RSVs as "counts as" (Sword model counts as Gladius, Firestorm model counts as Nova, Cobra model counts as Hunter) as well as painted according to the SM owners fleet? That way we can do away with the RSVs altogether.

[Plaxor]

Did a playtest of 3 ork KKs of proposed stats (see ork thread) vs battlebarge (with +1 shield/turret, at 440 pts)

Battlebarge LD: 8

Kroozer 1: 6
Kroozer 2: 5
Kroozer 3: 6

Set up: the game was played in the outer reaches, with a large planet (No moons) near the center, and 6 asteroid fields scattered around in 3 of the sections, so:

    X     Plnt     1AF
    X     2AF     3 AF

The space marine chose table edge, and set up near the planet on the left side in the diagram. The orks set up between the two sections of asteroid fields in the middle bottom right, pointing slightly towards the planet.

First turn SM:
The battle barge turns and heads towards the planet (LOS blocked to Kroozers)

First turn Orks:
AAF towards the planet

Second turn SM:
The BB travels onto the planet, and turns so it's guns face the KKs fires at KK1, causing no hits. it launches thunderhawks, which travel in front of the KKs

Second turn Orks:
They AAF past the planet and use the planets turn to face the battlebarge, the BB is abeam but they are within 15cm. they all fire, 3 shields down. Thunderhawks engage KK2, results: fire!, and Port armament damaged. Fire is repaired in end phase

Third turn SM:
RO, BB moves and turns to keep KKs in it's side arc, now the KKs are abeam to it. fires at KK2, causing 3 hits (1 shield) and critical fire. Thunderhawks engage KK2,  causing 2 starboard armament damaged. Fire isn't repaired and causes 1 additional hit.

Third turn Orks!:
LO is attempted KK3 passes, KK2 fails. All cruisers use planets free turn, and KK1+2 make it into contact with BB's base. Boarding action! KK3 fires at the BB in rear arc 3 hits! all shields.
Boarding action: Overall orks get a +2 to their roll, Orks roll an 8, sms roll a 3. 5 hits! critical dorsal weapon damaged. KK2 doesn't repair fire, and takes another hit. BB doesn't repair dorsal armament.

Fourth turn SM:
RO pass. Battle barge uses it's free turn, moves and turns to face rear of KKs, fires wbs at KK2 who braces and passes. 5 hits (1 shield, then 4 saved). My roommate is very disappointed and threatens me for being lucky. TH engage KK2, causing engine room damaged (great) and prow armament damaged. The kroozer repairs fire.

Fourth turn orks:
KK2 attempts disengage: pass. Other ships LO and use their free turn to get in rear of BB. 6 hits! (4 shields) no criticals. BB is crippled. KK1 does teleport attack, rolls 1... BB repairs bombardment cannon.


Fifth Turn BB:
LO pass, turns and faces side of KK1: fires and causes 4x hits (1 shield), 2 critical fires. Kroozer fails to repair and takes 2 hits, and is crippled.


Orks Fifth turn:
KKs lock on again, both pass, use their free turn and move behind BB again. They fire, causing 4 hits (2 shields) no criticals. KK1 tries to repair fire, fails and is at 3 hits.

Sixth turn BB:
My roomate tries to decide if he should disengage or help the KK burn. Hard decision, he ends up LO  turns and fires at the KK1 causing 4 hits (KK1 dies), is a burning hulk.

Sixth turn orks:
The Hulk doesn't explode
I consider disengaging, and hoping to have more Vps, decides math isn't the ork way out and I turn to board the BB. orks win 4 to 3, causing 1 point of damage, neither ship takes criticals.

Seventh turn BB:
Disengages


Total VPS:
Not counting the hulk.
Orks 215
SM: 225?

Although with the hulk orks would've won. It was weird fighting on a planetary template... given the planet was 40cm across.

[Plaxor]

@Admiral D

How do you feel about keeping some WBs at 45 (str4) as it is written in the fluff, and is a quirk seperating it from the Dominator. Probably the ship would move back up to 185. Then the Upgrade (downgrade?) would be made only a 5 point cost, or free.

[horizon]

My yes or no's:

Chaos:
Warmasters: 50 point ld8 option: Horizon,Baron, commander
Make normal Ld9 Horizon, Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, commander
largest class instead of most expensive: Horizon, Sigoroth, Baron
----> I assume the 13th list. Nah, let command stay as is. Makes difference between both Chaos list.
----> Good on largest.


IN:
Avenger cost (give a value, current proposed, 190, 210, 200): Sigoroth, Horizon, Baron, Lastspartacus
Tyrant: Make wbs str12: Horizon, Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Comander, Lastspartacus
-----> Avenger as is should be 190pts.
-----> No, no str12 batteries on the Tyrant.


Astartes:
Sedito Oprimere: Make resemble BB with 3 lb: Horizon, Admiral D, Rcgothic, Commander, Lastspartacus
-----> No.

Gladius: Reduce by 5 points: Horizon, Commander, Lastspartacus, Admiral D
Nova: Reduce by 5 points: Horizon, Commander, Lastspartacus, Admiral D
-----> If RSV removed then: No.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I'd really just go with what Sigoroth said. Simpler really. FP12@30cm with torps. Upgrade to FP10@45cm with torps at 190. Then NC upgrade at +20.

[BaronIveagh]

Please vote for the things where your name is listed.

Chaos:
Warmasters: 50 point ld8 option: Horizon,Baron, commander
Make normal Ld9 Horizon, Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, commander
largest class instead of most expensive: Horizon, Sigoroth, Baron

No Opinion.  
No Opinion
Yes

IN:
Avenger cost (give a value, current proposed, 190, 210, 200): Sigoroth, Horizon, Baron, Lastspartacus
Tyrant: Make wbs str12: Horizon, Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Comander, Lastspartacus

190
Sure

Astartes:
Add torp version at str. 3 (trade for lbs): Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Lastspartacus, Commander
add carrier version for 15 points: Admiral D Artagnan, Baron, Commander, Lastspartacus
Add option to swap lbs with str 3 F bombard: Admiral D Artagnan, RCgothic, Commander, Lastspartacus
Sedito Oprimere: Make resemble BB with 3 lb: Horizon, Admiral D, Rcgothic, Commander, Lastspartacus
Battlebarge: +1 turret/shield: Commander
Strike Cruiser: Sheilds at 2, launch bay at 1: Commander, Lastspartacus
Rapid strike vessels: Delete: Admiral D Artagnan, Commander, Lastspartacus
Gladius: Reduce by 5 points: Horizon, Commander, Lastspartacus, Admiral D
Nova: Reduce by 5 points: Horizon, Commander, Lastspartacus, Admiral D

No
Yes
No
No
Already voted
Already voted
No to deleting RS ships.
Yes to point reduction

[Plaxor]

What? Why doesn't anyone care about the fluff for this vessel? keeping 4 longer range wbs maintains its fluff, and keeps it unique from the dominator.

[Plaxor]

Baron? I thought you were very pro-upgrades when it came to ships. You said it in the marine thread where having lances was a good idea because it eliminates redundancy. Why would you be against the torps and bc option?

Note: torps would go to 6 if the shield/launch bay swap never happen.

[BaronIveagh]

Baron? I thought you were very pro-upgrades when it came to ships. You said it in the marine thread where having lances was a good idea because it eliminates redundancy. Why would you be against the torps and bc option?

Note: torps would go to 6 if the shield/launch bay swap never happen.

Oh.  Sorry,  I was reading something else and typing here.

If the shield/lb swap doesn't happen, I'm for both of them. 

I still vote NO to the RS deletion.  I'm opposed to radical retcons.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Because the fluff can just go with the 45 cm Tyrant. Why bother splitting it since one will obviously get the full upgrade anyway? FP4@45 cm? Not going to do much. Even against Eldar.