List of flawed ships

[RCgothic]

SC isn't being nerfed. It's getting tougher at the expense of some LB capacity - just what a SM ship should be.

[BaronIveagh]

SC isn't being nerfed. It's getting tougher at the expense of some LB capacity - just what a SM ship should be.

Yes it is.  It can already get +1 shield in the FAQ as stands.  The savings in points is barely enough to buy an extra escort in most fleets.

One thing has been bothering me: why would anyone ever take the lance version of the SC?  It's inferior AND costs 20 more points.

[horizon]

Because we don't like the lance we made it as expensive as possible.

[lastspartacus]

Good point on the BB Sig.  I can see them trusting in their armor crew skill to divert power to places other than a 4th turret, but 4th shield should be there, and be virtually free.

[BaronIveagh]

Good point on the BB Sig.  I can see them trusting in their armor crew skill to divert power to places other than a 4th turret, but 4th shield should be there, and be virtually free.

Yes, because we should all want the SM to have a ship that requires an extra 300-400 more points to kill above it's own cost from everyone but nids.

[lastspartacus]

My my, you DO have alot of faith in a single shield! 0.o

[BaronIveagh]

My my, you DO have alot of faith in a single shield! 0.o

It's the number of hits that point of shield negates before the ship can be killed.  A Desolator could do it, but it would be time consuming, something on the order of six turns.  Most of the other lance BBs would be run down and killed before they could cripple it.  You might be able to kill it with torp bombers by forcing the SM player to choose between using the turrets to stop bombers or stop torps. 

WBs though are going to be next to useless.  Between 4 shields and +6 it'd take an absurd amount of WBs to inflict hits, particularly if it BFIs.  Anything that has to close within 30 cm is probably dead though. 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

It's the number of hits that point of shield negates before the ship can be killed.  A Desolator could do it, but it would be time consuming, something on the order of six turns.  Most of the other lance BBs would be run down and killed before they could cripple it.  You might be able to kill it with torp bombers by forcing the SM player to choose between using the turrets to stop bombers or stop torps.

Ah so you want a ship which can take it down in one turn. Well, why didn't you say so?

WBs though are going to be next to useless.  Between 4 shields and +6 it'd take an absurd amount of WBs to inflict hits, particularly if it BFIs.  Anything that has to close within 30 cm is probably dead though.  

So if it BFIs, it doesn't have ordnance (AC and torps), BCs go down to FP4 and WBs go down to FP5. So what's your problem? That you'll have a hard time killing it? I should hope so since it houses a significant portion of a Chapter of the Emperor's finest which are precious in that there are only 1,000 of them per Chapter on paper. It should be survivable. What it should not do is be good on the attack but it should be quite hard to take down. Same with the SC.

[BaronIveagh]

Ah so you want a ship which can take it down in one turn. Well, why didn't you say so?

D'Art, There's a difference between taking one turn to kill it, and six turns if you're lucky.  So far, the only fleets with a prayer below 1k points are Chaos, Necrons and eldar.  Orks, Tau, and IN are largely up a creek.  Nids I'm not too sure of, no one plays them round here, and I'm too broke at the moment to buy another fleet to playtest it myself.

So if it BFIs, it doesn't have ordnance (AC and torps), BCs go down to FP4 and WBs go down to FP5. So what's your problem? That you'll have a hard time killing it? I should hope so since it houses a significant portion of a Chapter of the Emperor's finest which are precious in that there are only 1,000 of them per Chapter on paper. It should be survivable. What it should not do is be good on the attack but it should be quite hard to take down. Same with the SC.

Except that with all these passive defenses and it's superior speed, it's quite capable of closing with and badly mauling any IN battleship.  You know, those battleships that Space Marines arn't supposed to be better then? 

[Plaxor]

  So far, the only fleets with a prayer below 1k points are Chaos, Necrons and eldar.  Orks, Tau, and IN are largely up a creek.  Nids I'm not too sure of, no one plays them round here, and I'm too broke at the moment to buy another fleet to playtest it myself.

Nids would have a hard time shooting it to death, but they have other means. Feeder tendrils murder high armored ships.... especially ones that like to be close like the BB. Tau would probably be more ok than you think, they do have a fair amount of lances at 1000, probably around ten.

IN having a hard time? Heh. You haven't seen the all gothic fleet people like to play (for god knows what reason), and the most common ship taken 'lunar' has half lances, so they would be fine at this points value unless they did something strange.

Eldar however... probably wouldn't do so well, as bombardment cannons are better than lances against eldar. Also the sms can keep up with them. Although, they are quite lance-equipped.

Orks... well having played orks for most of a decade, and most of my games against space marines, is the reason that I don't like the idea of a 4th shield on a BB, it's already hard enough for orks to take out as is. (as their normal method for dealing with high armor, boarding, isn't effective against the smurfs)

But I do understand the reasons behind it, primarily the fact that 6+armor closing < 5+ armor abeam. It's something that hurts the orks as well, as their ships appear to be tougher on the outside, but IN and Chaos will turn abeam as soon as possible and be more defended. Not to mention that it's much easier to get internal damage on a low-shielded target.

Look at a retribution, if it is closing, it will be tougher than a BB (due to additional shields), if it is abeam, it will be much tougher than a BB, and it's weapons are effective from a distance, so it doesn't have to sit there and get pounded from 15cm. This was the way Admiral D Art (I think, might've been sigoroth) explained it to me.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

D'Art, There's a difference between taking one turn to kill it, and six turns if you're lucky.  So far, the only fleets with a prayer below 1k points are Chaos, Necrons and eldar.  Orks, Tau, and IN are largely up a creek.  Nids I'm not too sure of, no one plays them round here, and I'm too broke at the moment to buy another fleet to playtest it myself.

All the battleships out there are almost as tough as the BB that it will still take you quite a number of turns to take them out. Coupled this with the fact that SM will be shot at or bombed earlier than usual before they retaliate (reminding you of your targeting all your AC on one ship tactic) and you can get some shots in. I still maintain BBs need the defensive upgrade. If you don't have any ships that can tackle the BB then take out the SCs. Much easier to do even with 2 shields.

Except that with all these passive defenses and it's superior speed, it's quite capable of closing with and badly mauling any IN battleship.  You know, those battleships that Space Marines arn't supposed to be better then?  

Maul with what? the IN battleships all have 4 shields themselves. Tha Apocalypse can take it out in a couple of turns easy. The Retribution and Oberon can as well but will take longer. The Emperor might have a problem but then that's what the attending battlecruisers and cruisers are for. SM cannot easily chew through the IN fleet.

It's also a point in favor of keeping the existing WB/BC and BM interaction. I have to agree with Sigoroth that the new proposed rules makes things too simple for SM so the current rule should remain though Orks will be hampered if it does.

[Plaxor]

It's also a point in favor of keeping the existing WB/BC and BM interaction. I have to agree with Sigoroth that it makes things too simple for SM so the current rule should remain though Orks will be hampered if it does.

Do you mean simultaneous fire? Doesn't hurt orks. The heavy guns are lies, they only come into play in obscure circumstance. I usually fire them Once per game if I'm running torps on everything (which is pretty much always) or 3-5 times if I'm not.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

It's also a point in favor of keeping the existing WB/BC and BM interaction. I have to agree with Sigoroth that it makes things too simple for SM so the current rule should remain though Orks will be hampered if it does.

Do you mean simultaneous fire? Doesn't hurt orks. The heavy guns are lies, they only come into play in obscure circumstance. I usually fire them Once per game if I'm running torps on everything (which is pretty much always) or 3-5 times if I'm not.

Sorry edited what I wrote to make things clearer. I meant simultaneous fire will not hurt SM and Orks if it is introduced yes but it also makes things too simple for them. I do think the SM player should have a problem with which one it will fire first on one target, the WB or the BC. Orks will hurt if the current rules remain but I think an increase in firepower as they should have would offset the problem.

[horizon]

Eh, I hate being a party spoiler. Give those CG's prow sensors as an option.

[BaronIveagh]

Eh, I hate being a party spoiler. Give those CG's prow sensors as an option.

Hmm... that's nto a bad option, but how much would it cost?