List of flawed ships

[RCgothic]

While the Armageddon is the best battlecruiser, I don't see why it should be the vessel chosen. As I said, a Lunar and a Strike Cruiser would offer a more challenging target with the Lunar and Strike Cruiser coming to 345 points. The problem with picking the Armageddon at 245 means the second ship will suck since you want to test if the Retribution comes out ok at 345 points. This is the point of your exercise right?

The Armageddon was pointed at 235pts. The Defiant was pointed at 120pts. The total was against a 355pt Retribution.

[Plaxor]

RCG, you certainly have a talent.

[horizon]

The diagrams didn't tell anything new RcG. Nicely made though.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

While the Armageddon is the best battlecruiser, I don't see why it should be the vessel chosen. As I said, a Lunar and a Strike Cruiser would offer a more challenging target with the Lunar and Strike Cruiser coming to 345 points. The problem with picking the Armageddon at 245 means the second ship will suck since you want to test if the Retribution comes out ok at 345 points. This is the point of your exercise right?

The Armageddon was pointed at 235pts. The Defiant was pointed at 120pts. The total was against a 355pt Retribution.

Yes but what I want to see is how it fares vs 2 balanced ships vs 1 strong ship and 1 weak ship preferably at 345 points. Using a Lunar or Gothic and a Strike Cruiser, things would be more interesting. Strike Cruiser could even ram the Retribution with the THs taking out the Ret's torp salvo and make things difficult for it by knocking out systems if they survive the turrets (unlikely but still possible).

[RCgothic]

Ok, well let's try 2 balanced ships. 2 Lunars for 360pts vs a Retribution.

Hits: 12 vs 16
Minimum to Damage: 4 vs 2
Ordnance: 9 vs 12
Weapons:
@60cm 3L vs 0
@45cm 3L&FP18 vs 0
@30cm 3L&FP18 vs 4L&FP12.

This is fairly even in firepower at 30cm, made up for by the extra torpedoes, but because of the shields it's a 3-1 difference in rate of damage. This also overcomes the 1.33-1 difference in hits.

[RCgothic]

Or how about an Emperor vs a Retribution.

355pts vs 365pts.

Shields, Hits, turrets the same.

Ordnance: 9 Torps vs 8 AC.

Firepower:
@60cm FP16 vs 3L
@45cm FP16 vs 3L&FP18.

The torps won't do any damage, but the Emperor will need to keep a fighter back as CAP. Without locking on, FP16 isn't enough to breach 4 shields against 6+ Cap Closing or 5+ Cap Abeam at close range. This means the Emperor will depend on its AC to do the damage - 2F&3B after casualties will do 1.13 attacks past shields per turn. the WBs will place BMs to slow the Retribution, but the Retribution can do the same and prevent the Emperor from turning.

The Retribution can penetrate the Emperor's shields, and will probably lock on as well. At close range vs Cap Ship Abeam locked on, the Retribution is looking at 5pts of damage past shields per turn, but it will take a while to manoeuvre to that position. The question is whether the Emperor will manage 6pts of damage past shields before the Retribution can land a killing blow? I think this is a very close fight.

So again, given an Emperor is 365pts, why should the Retribution be 345?

[Sigoroth]

The argument that the fixed Ret should cost only 345 pts confounds me somewhat. I get the feeling that the only reason it's being presented is because the current Ret is 345 pts and weak, and therefore there is resistance to the idea of any form of cost bump.

However, let's look at the original costs. The Emp was only 345 pts and the Ret was 365 pts. Now, this was obviously unbalanced, but I put it to you (the BFG community) that if the that original Ret was 18WB at 45cm instead of 12WB at 60cm then not only would people have taken the ship but most likely there would never have been any change in the cost of the Emperor. I believe the reason for the points swap was because people complained about the terrible disparity between the Emp and Ret and the HA thought it more a problem with the Emp than the Ret and so figured the swap would fix all problems (of course, they were wrong).

The point here being that if the HA had plumped for the fix to the Rets broadside firepower that we are talking about it would have been at 365 pts, and the Emp still at 345 pts. I imagine that most people would consider this situation slightly unbalanced still, but it is certainly better than the current (official) state of affairs and an acceptable arrangement.

That is an argument from tolerance though, not balance. When looking to balance then we should look at what we have, which is 12WB at 60cm for 345 pts. While this arrangement is suboptimal to the role of the ship I think it would be hard to argue that this version of the ship should cost less than 345 pts. That is, it's balanced for what it gives, though not particularly attractive. So, starting from this point, we swap 15cm range for +50% firepower. This is not equal. The firepower is worth quite a bit more than the range. Add to this the fact that the ship is now optimised to its role and a 10 pt increase really is quite conservative.

[Bryantroy2003]

That is an argument from tolerance though, not balance. When looking to balance then we should look at what we have, which is 12WB at 60cm for 345 pts. While this arrangement is suboptimal to the role of the ship I think it would be hard to argue that this version of the ship should cost less than 345 pts. That is, it's balanced for what it gives, though not particularly attractive. So, starting from this point, we swap 15cm range for +50% firepower. This is not equal. The firepower is worth quite a bit more than the range. Add to this the fact that the ship is now optimised to its role and a 10 pt increase really is quite conservative.


This paragraph pretty much summs up why id oppose it. Because I remember the days back when I had to pay 365 points for a line breaker that did worse then the 345 point Emp at its intended role. However after play testing the new points cost/rules I would easily concede to the 355 total being proposed and count my self lucky you didnt raise it up more.

[RCgothic]

The argument that the fixed Ret should cost only 345 pts confounds me somewhat. I get the feeling that the only reason it's being presented is because the current Ret is 345 pts and weak, and therefore there is resistance to the idea of any form of cost bump.

However, let's look at the original costs. The Emp was only 345 pts and the Ret was 365 pts. Now, this was obviously unbalanced, but I put it to you (the BFG community) that if the that original Ret was 18WB at 45cm instead of 12WB at 60cm then not only would people have taken the ship but most likely there would never have been any change in the cost of the Emperor. I believe the reason for the points swap was because people complained about the terrible disparity between the Emp and Ret and the HA thought it more a problem with the Emp than the Ret and so figured the swap would fix all problems (of course, they were wrong).

The point here being that if the HA had plumped for the fix to the Rets broadside firepower that we are talking about it would have been at 365 pts, and the Emp still at 345 pts. I imagine that most people would consider this situation slightly unbalanced still, but it is certainly better than the current (official) state of affairs and an acceptable arrangement.

That is an argument from tolerance though, not balance. When looking to balance then we should look at what we have, which is 12WB at 60cm for 345 pts. While this arrangement is suboptimal to the role of the ship I think it would be hard to argue that this version of the ship should cost less than 345 pts. That is, it's balanced for what it gives, though not particularly attractive. So, starting from this point, we swap 15cm range for +50% firepower. This is not equal. The firepower is worth quite a bit more than the range. Add to this the fact that the ship is now optimised to its role and a 10 pt increase really is quite conservative.

100% agreement, as people may be able to tell.

[afterimagedan]

I'm a bit new to this but it seems like 345 may be a bit low. It seemed a little bit overpriced when the ship was 60cm and WB12 but because the ship, with the rest of it being build like a linebreaker type, was contradictory in it's own layout. Why do you need the range when you want to smash into the enemy line with torps and plow through so you can use those batteries? Shorter range  and more power makes the Retribution more suited for it's job. That being said, it now still has a decent range and much more powerful wbs. It is now a much more effective ship then it once was. 355 seems right to me. The drop in a little bit of range for the jump to wb18 seems to warrant the price raise.

[Bryantroy2003]

8 Orcas
2 Messengers
 LD 9 Admiral + 1RR
4 Hero’s 2 Standard 2 Tolku
4 Standard Merchants + Hits

Total 1990pts

Ret 355pt version
LD 8 Admiral
1 Dictator
Overlord 220pt short range version no upgraded systems
Gothic
Tyrant +WB range (Book values)
3 Dauntless Lance versions
5 Cobra’s
3 Falchions
5 Firestorms (Book values)

Total 1995

Battlefield is 3 feet wide and 5 feet long, with at least once small terrain piece in all six sections of the board. The dominating features are the Solar Flare and Large Planet. I start on the end with the planet and in his deployment zone sits a medium sized asteroid belt. He must split his fleet to avoid placing any ships starting inside it or crowding them too much in a small area. His escorts are organized into 4 orca's to a messenger per squadron and none of his capital ships are squadroned. My own ships have one squadron between the tyrant and Overlord. Their equal range allowing them to combine fire effectively to avoid having their dice reduced for BM's. And their torp waves will be formidable, I hoped.

Rather than go turn by turn since I failed to take detailed enough notes ill separate it by 3 periods since it was a 6 turn game.

First Period,

I lead the charge with every squadron but my swords managing to go AAF and not wanting to waste my only reroll on that they lag behind by about 10cm. The Dauntless shoot ahead all nearly maxing their rolls and the slowest one advances 49cm. They were positioned such as to hide behind a dust cloud 30cm to their front still thus blocking any attempts to get a first strike on them. My retribution sitting in the open inviting their torpedo’s and AC to attack. My own Dictator Launches fighters that move straight ahead to block some of the inevitable AC that will be incoming.

His own Ships move minimum distances, with the 3 hero/2 merchant portion of the fleet moving into the dust cloud’s edge to target my LC’s hiding on the other side. The WB fire is affected by firing through the dust and they procede to put the lead Dauntless into Brace as it manages to save 5/6 hits and doesn’t get a crit against it. Close one for me. Their torps all concentrate on my Ret with their AC moving in on the Dictator. Only 2 waves of torps manage to reach the Ret failing to cause any damage and 3 being shot down. The remaining Torps will be in a position to bother my Gothic next turn.

Second Period

Now this is where it gets hazy. My Ret manages to get its self in between both parts of his fleet and LO causing a hero and merchant to be crippled for next to no return damage and my Dictator is destroyed by his AC waves, he rolled supernaturally high on his attack run rolls and his damage dice were all 5’s and 6’s, The Emperor has a very nasty sense of humor.

But not much else happened other then my Dauntless’s getting into his rear arc and making a nucance of them selves. Neither side’s escorts have managed to do much at all at this point.

Third Period, Showdown

Some how we both manage to congregate into the center moving minimum speeds and using the planet to turn around overshoots from the escorts. In one turn of LO from both sides we are left with my Crippled Ret and Gothic along with my Firestorms and a single Cobra, and he has 2 Hero’s almost crippled and a Merchant left but none of his escorts are damaged. Another turn of maneuvering from me has my Ret in a position to hit one hero on each side of its broadsides but since I had to turn I cant LO and I come up with settling for crippling both of them rather then kill them. My Gothic moves in on the lone Merchant and cripples it as well with a lucky double 6 from its two remaining lances.

My Firestorms move in on LO and take out one of his squadrons and its pesky messanger. My lone Cobra stages a last ditch torp run on his other messanger but fails to kill it. My Cap ships torps are also loaded so I fire the Ret’s 5 torps at the escorts and the gothic’s 3 at the nearest crippled Hero. Causing 2 more escorts to die and one more hit on the hero to include a Fire! crit. He has the one hero to my BB’s right use the Planet to turn about without officially turning and thus uses LO while the other comes headon both managing to bring down my shields but fail to inflict any more hits. His Merchant moves up on LO as well and scores a single hit, and takes out the bridge. Poor Admiral Buckethat  you will be missed. His escorts attempt to move up but have to stop short or run over his own torpedo markers from earlier in the game that are still mucking things up with some pretty awesome turns. Thus they end their move 1cm short of shooting at my Ret as well, but I let them any way since he was very generous in allowing me to reroll a dice that was sitting barely on the edge of the planet during my AAF roll in the beginning.

This proves to be fatal as he scores the last 3 hits needed to kill her. Thankfully she is just hulked and can be salvaged later to Kill more Heritic’s and Xeno’s scum.  At this point it was late and we called it a game.

My overall impression with the new points/wb’s for the Ret is a good one. From my experience the Lances on it aren’t used over 45cm much but they are a nice pocket option. Sadly my Overlord died when my Dictator decided to get sucked into the warp. And scored 8 hits against it with its shields already down. I used my reroll here trying to brace but rolled 11 both times. Sometimes I hate rolling high ^_^.  His impression was positive as well since he didn’t think the new rules overbalanced the Ret but defiantly made it his focal point for most of the game. Thanks to a BB’s 4 shields and huge turret amount this was a very tough nut to crack. Oh and an embarrassing moment for me…. I didn’t quite manage to keep my Tyrant on the board, on turn 3 its base was sticking off the edge at the end of its mandatory move thus 195 pts weren’t used effectively and only fired once before disengaging. Ill have to pay more attention next game.

[Taggerung]

@ RC + Sig....

Not getting into this debate again. It was decided once it would stay at 345, and I don't know why you guys are trying to bring up a damn argument for a 10 point cost fucking difference. Do you not have better things to do?

[horizon]

Because 10pts could be the power ram or the assault boats, perhaps the asset which brings you the game victory in the nailbiting end of a campaign?

[Bryantroy2003]

Because just like the Dictator needing a slight reduction, I woulda been grateful for a 5pt one even, the Ret in all of my test games has performed great and that 10pt increase never slowed it down. But if you gave me 10pts more to put to something else in addition to taking it could well allow me to afford something I would have had to do without. I cant think of anything off the top of my head atm, but if its already been agreed upon to stay at 345 ill not argue the point any more. And I will pray an extra time to the Emperor for the steal of a price im getting.

I might even try to work BB's into my Limante list.... nah I just love those cobra's too much.

[RCgothic]

@ RC + Sig....

Not getting into this debate again. It was decided once it would stay at 345, and I don't know why you guys are trying to bring up a damn argument for a 10 point cost fucking difference. Do you not have better things to do?

It was originally decided for 355pts, but kicking up a fuss got it changed. We're just following precedent.

The Retribution has got significantly more powerful, to the extent that a 10pt price increase is conservative. I'm confident that in a straight fight the Retribution can compete on at least even terms with the Emperor and Apocalypse, both 365pt ships.

I've already compared to the Emperor, but compare to the Apocalypse: Retribution has the stronger prow and dorsal weaponry. It's faster. It doesn't have the range of the Apocalypse's lances, but it isn't subject to a penalising special rule either. Whilst 6 lances are powerful at 30cm plus, the FP18 comes back into its own at 15cm and gains far greater benefit from lock-on.