Is FAQ2010 what we actually need?

[Zelnik]

Hmmm.. Well lets start the flame war.

Desolator: This is the first time i have ever heard someone want to nerf this ship.  When it comes to people begging for WYSWYG, remember -staggered fire- people. 

Despoiler: Yeah well, I would love to see the LC moved to prow, but it would suffer really bad from a 5 on the critical damage table. What makes it up is the st 8 salvo.  I actually find this ship preferable to the emperor because one reload special order loads two kinds of ordnance, which you can use to REALLY bone an opponent. 

Devistation: A great carrier, people usually want it better because they don't know how to use it. Those 60cm lances are meant for long range bombardment while staying far away from the conflict. supporting fire anyone?

Styx: Again, i think i am the only SOB who likes this thing as it is, since i keep it sitting happy with my Devistations in the back.  A supporting fire carrier group suddenly becomes a lethal long range prospect.

Murder: Hey buddy, i take a murder-hades-murder combo, and i love it.  Again, one of the rare SOB's who likes this ship over the Carnage

Carnage: Eh. one trick pony. Useful against eldar, less effective against anything with an armored prow miserable against 6+ armor.

Retaliator: This ship feels like it was meant for 2k games.  Bringing two of them with a group of slaughters makes for a super-fast, super-deadly fleet.  It's not like they are not well armed, and it has a huge benefits over the devistation... like 2 more hits, 1 more shield.. better AAF... etc. It could use a drop in points though, 275 is a little high. 250 would more more appropriate

Remember: executor only has lances... that's it. It is useless against three fleets in the game. 

The Repulsive... seriously, everyone agrees that it gets it's 3rd shield. Don't sweat that.

Chaos fleet: The ONLY thing that should be considered for it are the other major character ships for the other chaos gods.

Demonships really only fit in well for big games.

On to the impy's.

Tyrant: The dominator is unique to the gothic sector. Get used to it. 

Dictator: I may be utterly insane, but i think this is the best cruiser-level carrier in the blue book, possibly in the game. Why, you ask? The combo of Torps and launch capacity.  One reload special order, like the despoiler, gets two very potent weapon systems ready to fire. Put a pair in a squadron, they become distinctly lethal, more lethal then an emperor IMHO. 

Exorcist: Just fine, thanks. I own one, it's part of my Imperial "Fleet of the Green Lake" list, sitting pretty with my oberon.

Honestly I think imperial navy gets TOO MUCH! There is such a huge focus on them compared to every other fleet in the game.


What do i want? what do i REALLY want?

I want people to step back and take a breath.  I want them to stop adding things that REALLY are not necessary.  I want people to stop thinking their idea is the right idea. 

But on a more selfish level, i would like to see an imperial navy or chaos fleet focused on grand cruisers. 

[horizon]

That was a rather non-flamable post. We agree on quite some points. Though I saw no one mentioning a nerf on the lovely Desolator tbh.

The only thing I disagree is the non-changing of the Devastation and the Despoiler (a bit). The Devestation is taken by 99/100 of the fleet lists out there I see on various forums. I am exaggaring but not far from it. The Styx is taken by less then 10% (me me me). Now it is a heavy cruiser thus less is plausible but not to this extend.
The Despoiler is also more often not used then used. Perhaps a little more used then the Styx.

Now the problem the Styx and Despoiler are not taken isn't their own profile/cost but the fact the Devestation is point for point a better choice.

Now, I would swap the ranges on the Devestation or drop the lances to 45cm. Still support but less range then the Styx and Despoiler which now get a better place in the fleet.


Here is my Despoiler idea, which reflects the model layout:

prow launch bay str.4
port launch bay str.2
starboard launch bay str.2
port weapons battery str.10 @ 60cm
starboard weapons battery str.10 @ 60cm
dorsal lance str3 @ 60cm

10 broadside batteries as the ship is build using two battery pieces like the Murder/Carnage. As a battleship it has better range.
Note: the ship has less firepower then the old one (it loses 4 lances or 9 torps compared to 8 batteries (4 in focus).
The ship may elect to swap prow launch bay for str8 torpedoes.

Modelwise perfect and a much better role in the fleet.

[BaronIveagh]

I must be really odd, I use a styx and the hades/murder combo...

That said:

As far as changes to specific ships goes:

IN:
I'd like to see Exorcist LBs buffed, with a moderate price increase.  Otherwise the ship's fine.
I'd like to see one of the following made legal: Nemesis Fleet Carrier/Long Serpent/Invincible Fast Battleship

Chaos:
Chaos CLs of some type.  There's no logical reason they don't exist. 
.... really that's about it. 

Tau:  Seem fine

Necrons: I think I've already commented on this

Eldar: see above

'nids: has already been dealt with, or so I hear

Dark Eldar: need more ships

[fracas]

tau merchants need to be made more competitive
option for two shield
option for 4 hooks

[horizon]

Truth.
Tau Armada is too strong (Hero needs profile adjusted to profile: weaker then Lunar, not eating it for breakfast as per current rules).

There are no Chaos CL because Chaos represent ships from the heresy where no CL existed.

Current IN cruisers could go Renegade and perhaps even Chaos. New rules reflect option to take 1 IN cruiser per 1500pts in a Chaos fleet.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

There's a logical reason why Chaos shouldn't get an LC. It's called a Slaughter.

[BaronIveagh]

There are no Chaos CL because Chaos represent ships from the heresy where no CL existed.

Um... I MAY be wrong, but I remember at least one CL being mentioned in the Horus Heresy novels.  Though I don't think any details were given, though.  I'll dig through my books and find the reference.  

Edit: Come to think of it, i won't need to.  The very first word's in the description for the Dauntless in blue book are: "Light scouting cruisers like the Dauntless class have always been a feature of Imperial fleets through out the Imperium." (italics mine)

[Zelnik]

Remember that the Imperial fleet technically did not exist until -after- the heresy.  Before then it was the Emperor's fleet, commanded by space marines.

Also, I (gasp) agree with admiral, the slaughter really is the CL for chaos, and on the whole, they don't need it.  They have more then enough speed and power behind them. Honestly, if you want maneuverability, take some idolaters or infidels. They get a bad rap here, but are truly amazing.

Tau Armada? I feel that it is solid as hell, and beatable. Think of it in these terms: Eldar vs eldar fleets end up in a messy blood bath.  Tau vs anyone but eldar ends up in a messy blood bath.  I have played against them and won several times. I always felt that the hero's description was written by a human I WOULD like to see a restriction on explorers though. (even if it's two per 1500 points)

I am very... wary of changing the despoiler in the manner you described, it's real power (or at least how i use the silly thing) is as a super-dictator.

[BaronIveagh]

Remember that the Imperial fleet technically did not exist until -after- the heresy.  Before then it was the Emperor's fleet, commanded by space marines.

Also, I (gasp) agree with admiral, the slaughter really is the CL for chaos, and on the whole, they don't need it.  They have more then enough speed and power behind them. Honestly, if you want maneuverability, take some idolaters or infidels. They get a bad rap here, but are truly amazing.

And IN doesn't need the Dauntless when they have the Sword and Firestorm by that logic.  And the 'Imperial Fleet' was the 'Imperial Navy' and they were more or less identical to the chaos fleet into M37 when the Murder class was phased out in favor of the Lunar.  (the Despoiler being an Imperial design from mid-M36)

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

No. IN need the Dauntless if only to balance out the cheap and fast forces of Chaos and yet not have the durability of Chaos ships. It's more for balance in the game rather than actual fluff reasoning. The Slaughter is still the main reason why Chaos should not get LCs.

As for the Despoilers, they were based off an STC discovered around that time. It wasn't an Imperial design per se. What the people who found the STC didn't realize was there was a reason why the Despoiler and Desolator type designs were discontinued and that was because of the susceptibility to Chaos. This proved to be true when the Despoilers turned traitor.

[BaronIveagh]

No. IN need the Dauntless if only to balance out the cheap and fast forces of Chaos and yet not have the durability of Chaos ships. It's more for balance in the game rather than actual fluff reasoning. The Slaughter is still the main reason why Chaos should not get LCs.

As for the Despoilers, they were based off an STC discovered around that time. It wasn't an Imperial design per se. What the people who found the STC didn't realize was there was a reason why the Despoiler and Desolator type designs were discontinued and that was because of the susceptibility to Chaos. This proved to be true when the Despoilers turned traitor.

You know, what's funny is I've never seen Dauntless used for that.  Eldar chasing, certainly, but never to counter fast chaos.  Most of the time I see NC used for that.

...Desolator ended because the admech lost the technology to replicate them.  Attrition saw them off after that.

According to fluff, such as it is, Despoilers were only questionably an STC design, as they were a 'new' battleship class designed as part of the Gareox Prerogative, based off the design of the Terminus Est.  Due to internal politics within Battlefleet Tempestus, Battlefleet Bakka, of it's own volition, launched an assault on Battlefleet Gareox.  Unprepared for such a thing, they were rather soundly defeated. In order to cover up that two entire sector fleets had abruptly turned on one another for political reasons, the Inquisition placed the entire buisness under seal, declaring that the loosing side were heretics.  I think that it's safe to say it wasn't the ships that turned them to chaos.

[Zelnik]

Well, I sure as hell have seen them used to outmaneuver chaos.  Nothing is more painful then a salvo 18 torps into my murder-hades-murder group... i still shudder at the memory... Or perhaps the strength 5 lance that AAF'd right up to a carrier and gutted it like a fish?

You are getting dangerously close to rabid fan here. Chaos does not NEED light cruisers. Chaos is not GETTING light cruisers.  There was only one ship in the book of nemesis that was worth reading about, and it was a space marine battle barge.

Dauntlesses and the Endeavor family are there to make up for a power gap between Chaos and Imperial ships.  The Dauntless is the only fast-cruiser the navy has, and the endeavors (will hopefully become) stable weapons platforms to supplement cruisers.

CL's are for one thing, speed and punch while having low health.  Chaos's entire fleet plan FOCUSES on speed and punch, hell a standard cruiser can throw a st 14 battery and two lances  off a broadside. 

So, No. No light cruisers.

[BaronIveagh]

Well, I sure as hell have seen them used to outmaneuver chaos.  Nothing is more painful then a salvo 18 torps into my murder-hades-murder group... i still shudder at the memory... Or perhaps the strength 5 lance that AAF'd right up to a carrier and gutted it like a fish?

You are getting dangerously close to rabid fan here. Chaos does not NEED light cruisers. Chaos is not GETTING light cruisers.  There was only one ship in the book of nemesis that was worth reading about, and it was a space marine battle barge.

Dauntlesses and the Endeavor family are there to make up for a power gap between Chaos and Imperial ships.  The Dauntless is the only fast-cruiser the navy has, and the endeavors (will hopefully become) stable weapons platforms to supplement cruisers.

CL's are for one thing, speed and punch while having low health.  Chaos's entire fleet plan FOCUSES on speed and punch, hell a standard cruiser can throw a st 14 battery and two lances  off a broadside. 

So, No. No light cruisers.

Since I don't know the detail of the str 18 torp hit, I'll ask the simple question on the Daunt hitting the carrier: why on earth did you let it get that close?  Carriers stay in the rear with the gear and anything that could possibly catch you should be named the HMS Priority Target. 

I'll give you two very good reasons for Chaos lights: eldar and necrons.  I'm tired of spending 25 turns chasing across the board after indestructible ship eating monsters.

As far as my fanboy level: I did convert the Schismatic class stats for use with Rogue Trader. 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

You're having trouble using Chaos against Eldar and Necron? Chaos with the 45-60 cm WBs on their cruisers?  Chaos with 45-60 cm lances? Riiiiiight.

[Plaxor]

I'm on the side of no CLs for chaos. The simple fact of it is that they would go unused, and are pointless when compared to the slaughter.

I mean.. what they would be speed 30? slightly cheaper than a slaughter... but have significantly less firepower? They don't serve a function in chaos that chaos doesn't already have.

The old philosophy, before armada, was that chaos got one ship class that the imperium didn't; GC. Although the funny thing is that IN players don't really take these classes (although I think this is primarily due to the money cost of a vengeance.)

It's one of those things where we want every fleet to have access to the same things. The fact is that they don't and if you look at game design they weren't meant to. Now that Chaos can take IN vessels makes this different (compensating for the INs ability to take chaos ships as reserves).