Making the Retribution function as the model appears

[horizon]

Hi Sigoroth,
regarding the Apocalypse you should keep in mind that they slipped the following into the FAQ2010 rules:

The ship does not take the +1 from the critical damage. Thrusters damaged, but no loss of hitpoint when firing locked on at 60cm.

warning...
I dunno, if we yell loud enough it might happen.

[Sigoroth]

ok. i also agree that FP 18 at 45 is the true solution - however, i doubt that the HA's will ever change that, period.

My note on the ret sucking, is that it's weapon output is exactly 1.5 overlords - for the same cost as 1.5 overlords.

we all know the overlord sucks.

however the ret gains DEFENSIVE capability. and an admiral is much more likely to throw a ret into the fray than a precious LB toting empy.

if your buying the ret, your buying A.) a badass looking ship, B.) a bullet magnet.

Never liked the look of the Ret myself. As far as I'm concerned the Oberon, Emperor and Apocalypse all look better.

And sure, if you're going for the approach, you take a Ret. Which makes its range useless. If you're going for range, just save yourself the bother and upgrade to a carrier ... helps out the fleet much better.

Hi Sigoroth,
regarding the Apocalypse you should keep in mind that they slipped the following into the FAQ2010 rules:

The ship does not take the +1 from the critical damage. Thrusters damaged, but no loss of hitpoint when firing locked on at 60cm.

warning...
I dunno, if we yell loud enough it might happen.

Yeah, I know, but even in this regard it's still not all that great. A crit is a crit, still gotta repair the damn thing (at least if you wanna turn any time soon). Besides, you want to use the NC while you can. If you go abeam hoping for long range lances and fail your LO test ...

Eh, well, it's not too hard to get some targets in prow arc and some in the side arc, but this'll likely require course corrections to maintain, which the crit does nothing to help, nor the slow base speed. Either way, I could see this working if it at least had a decent dorsal weapon strength.

Mind you, I may come off harshly on the Apoc, but I do have 2 or 3 of them. So they're not totally useless, just more risky.

[Zelnik]

Val, please note that not everyone is hating on the overlord. I love the thing, and i would "educate" you on it's glory if you lived in the midwest of the U.S.

Again, all i am seeing is "i want it with x weapon battery!" without a real justifiable reason as to why.

Why do the carrier battleships have better broadsides? in reality they don't. if you split it evenly between the two arcs, you get a st 11 battery. You only get one broadside of at 16, and then your done until the ordnance phase.

The retrib has a guaranteed st 12 on both sides, plus the benefit of three dorsal lances.  It's not meant to pulverize a whole cruiser in one round unless your shooting up the enemy's nose at close range. It's supposed to be a reliable damage dealer turn-for-turn, which if your using it right, you can score some really solid hits on most ships smaller then it.  A battleship killer it is NOT.  If you want to wreck battleships, get an Apoc.

[commander]

Val, please note that not everyone is hating on the overlord. I love the thing, and i would "educate" you on it's glory if you lived in the midwest of the U.S.

Again, all i am seeing is "i want it with x weapon battery!" without a real justifiable reason as to why.

Why do the carrier battleships have better broadsides? in reality they don't. if you split it evenly between the two arcs, you get a st 11 battery. You only get one broadside of at 16, and then your done until the ordnance phase.

The retrib has a guaranteed st 12 on both sides, plus the benefit of three dorsal lances.  It's not meant to pulverize a whole cruiser in one round unless your shooting up the enemy's nose at close range. It's supposed to be a reliable damage dealer turn-for-turn, which if your using it right, you can score some really solid hits on most ships smaller then it.  A battleship killer it is NOT.  If you want to wreck battleships, get an Apoc.

Not quite right. A carrier goes abeam at R60 and focusses all she's got: LB, WB and evt Lances. Massive output if one compares that to the Retribution.
A retribution, using his range is a waste because carriers have higher output. And if using ordnance, the range is lost. So reduce the useless range and up the firepower so that it is suited to its role: breaking the line.

[horizon]

And since the Retribution it will be closer, thus easier to hit and damage.

[Sigoroth]

Val, please note that not everyone is hating on the overlord. I love the thing, and i would "educate" you on it's glory if you lived in the midwest of the U.S.

Well now, you go and say things like this and expect us to treat you seriously. Just because you've permanently got some beer-goggles on regarding certain ships doesn't mean they're actually any good.

Again, all i am seeing is "i want it with x weapon battery!" without a real justifiable reason as to why.

Um, because we should choose how we get to spend our points. We don't want to pay for long range on our ships that are designed to break the line, nor should we have to do so.

Why do the carrier battleships have better broadsides? in reality they don't. if you split it evenly between the two arcs, you get a st 11 battery. You only get one broadside of at 16, and then your done until the ordnance phase.

In reality, they do have better broadsides. Both the Emperor and the Oberon can get half the broadside firepower of the Retribution from just 1 hard point. The Oberon's direct fire broadsides are actually superior to that of the Retribution since lances don't suffer from long range shifts. On top of this both the Oberon and Emperor get great efficiency out of their remaining broadside hardpoints, since "off-side" AC are focusable. All this is on top of the fact that no one in the history of the world has ever had an enemy in each broadside arc in the 46-60cm range bracket with no closer target whereby the Retribution would actually get to use its 24 long range broadside WBs to better effect than the 22 of the Emperor.

The retrib has a guaranteed st 12 on both sides, plus the benefit of three dorsal lances.  It's not meant to pulverize a whole cruiser in one round unless your shooting up the enemy's nose at close range. It's supposed to be a reliable damage dealer turn-for-turn, which if your using it right, you can score some really solid hits on most ships smaller then it.  A battleship killer it is NOT.  If you want to wreck battleships, get an Apoc.

Ah, yes, but if it had a guaranteed st 18 on both sides, plus the benefit of three dorsal lances ... it would be worth taking.

[RCgothic]

Absolutely agree. I have a Retribution, but only because it had the most bad-ass looks and I didn't think to magnetise it at the time. I would certainly be taking an Emperor or Oberon instead.

To use the 60cm range, you have to go abeam, where the other battleships outgun it 40WBe (Emp), 34WBe(Ob) and 24WBe(Apoc) to 21(Ret).

If you use it as a line breaker and have enemies either side, it is again outgunned by the other battleships 46WBe(Emp&Ob), 42WBe(Apoc) to 33WBe(Ret). Even if you argue that the Carriers have to stay on RO whilst the Ret can go Lock On, the Apoc still obliterates it.

Finally, with enemies all round, the Ret finally gets a miniscule edge compared to the Carriers with 46.5WBe compared to 46WBe, the Apoc still obliterates it with 55WBe, AND doesn't have to worry about the choice between RO and Lock On.

And as the Apoc still has a 6+ Prow, the only argument in favour of a Retribution is its low cost and 5cm speed.

Bugger that. Give us FP18.

[Lord Duggie The Mad]

Indeed.  I bought a Retribution as I felt that it suited the 'feel' of my fleet and my preferred methods of engagement.  Lead from the fore, guns blazing, huzzah!  I can picture the Emperor acting brilliantly as a fleet support battleship sending wave after wave of ordnance, or the Apocalyspe bearing down inexorably on the enemy with its nova cannon firing repeatedly whilst the lace decks are brought into range.  But the Retribution leaps off the page to me as a cavalier vessel designed lead the cruisers into the heart of the battle and not the sort of vessel to cling to the edges of the conflict - it has been mentioned after all that it is a fast battleship, one of the only fast Imperial ones.  Fluff wise, I suppose the Avenger was built with the same prinicple in mind and that is indeed how it functions.  Is it not befitting of the Imperial Navy to have a battleship that fulfils that role too?  It was with that question in mind that I really started asking why it was that other smaller ships could potentially outshoot it in a close range brawl.

Perhaps an appeal to High Admiralty (assuming I have my acronyms correct) to include the FP18 @45cm alternative as an add on to the list as a ship class variant?  The name I have in the back of my mind is His Immutable Will -I'm not sure if that's already taken but I thought it sounded appropriate.

[Mazila]

Retribution has good firepower for its points cost and for being and imperial BB. It does go ahead of the main force because it can soak up incomming damage. This ship is good as it is.

[Lord Duggie The Mad]

Retribution has good firepower for its points cost and for being and imperial BB. It does go ahead of the main force because it can soak up incomming damage. This ship is good as it is.

Fair point.  My query though would be around the usefulness of 60cm weapons batteries for a ship that - to me at least - is designed to be at the fore and hence at much closer range.

[RCgothic]

No, it's rubbish as it is. It's outgunned in every range category and engagement type by another battleship, often by dedicated carriers, and conflicted in its design ethos - it doesn't soak up more firepower than an Apoc either.

We don't want a conflicted, undergunned cheap battleship, we want a line-breaking beast that functions how it looks, even if it has to become more expensive.

[Mazila]

My point is - don't change the Retribution profile - just make a new variant of BB if you really want smth harder.

[Lord Duggie The Mad]

Quite so Mazila.  I wouldn't press for a revision of the official variant, rather the option to upgrade to more powerful but shorter ranged broadside batteries.  I think there are one or two cruiser options in the lists that have done so before.

[horizon]

Okay, proposal:

Revolution Class Battleship
345 points

12 hits
6+/5+ armour
speed 20cm
turns 45*
turrets 4
shields 4

port weapons battery strength 18 @ 45cm - L
starboard weapons battery strength 18 @ 45cm - R
dorsal lance battery strenght 3 @ 60cm - LFR
prow torpedoes strength 9 @ 30cm speed


Ha!

[Lord Duggie The Mad]

HUZZAH!!