Adeptus Mechanicus Alternate Refit Rules

[Silent Requiem]

I agree that each ship should be required to take at least one refit. The extra turret and lance should be an addtional requirement, because they really give flavour and a sense of the AM style to the fleet.

Not using the sub-plots is fine in small groups, but I don't think anyone wants to have to convince every new player he meets that they should just ignore what is (foolishly) written into the rules. It also makes a difference if someone wants to enter a tournament - even a local one. Lets just get rid of a bad idea.

-Silent Requiem

[lastspartacus]

@Sig:
I like the idea of changing fleet turrets, as current its a bit wonky that it can't use its own turrets like a ship in btb massing turrets.
And yes, it is wierd that a MARS class isn't in admech lists.  They seem to not want innate novas to be had.

@SR:
Good point on the Magos, hadn't considered that.  Maybe discount on next refit and lowered cost?
Write it up if you have a refit idea, though I think no more than 8 should be found in the final tally, personally.
Standard cruiser upgrades should be seperate, IMO, as it would prevent you from usually having more than one.

I like the idea of the subplots, though they need some reworking.  I think it should be at the Admech player's discretion if he wants to use them at all or not in the game.

@Horizon
Of course, I forgot to mention of course that every ship must take a refit.  Lance and turret are mandatory as well.


Simply because Admech cruisers are so pricey already, I'm aiming for a 5 point refit option, preferably one of the currents.  Think 5 points is too cheap for one of the weaker admech refits?

[Sigoroth]

The Archmagos wouldn't have to change, since they don't currently give you the ability to choose your refit, they give you an extra refit of your choice. So 2 refits, instead of 1.

Mind you, the Veneratus needs to come down in price. But this is just because it's waaaay too expensive.

[horizon]

Hi,

Agreed, the standard Magos for 50pts is fine. Veneratus is obscene.

On the Mars: Sigoroth made an observation not a statement. The AdMech has (fluffwise) no battlecruisers. But their Dictator can be equipped in such a way it is almost a Mars.

[Silent Requiem]

I'm not sure we need to limit the number of refits per ship. AM is a list for people who want to soup up their ships. As long as the refits are costed properly, is it really a problem?

I think the AM have the potential to be a really, really interesting list, that is very character driven (a rarity in the 40k universe). We just need to remove the randomness that prevents people from building that character into their list.

In a sense, a Magos Veneratus is like a Rogue Trader, seeking knowledge/profit on the stellar maine, only the Magos has the backing of Mars, and his mission is holy. His ships will all be customised to his mission and his methods. I doubt any fleet would be more meticulous about selecting the right tools for the job than the AM.

-Silent Requiem

[lastspartacus]

It is a fun fleet, and you are right in your points.  I just think a long list of refits would be confusing and diluting for admech player and opponent, not that I would mind a few more.

For the 'choose your refit' on the Magos, as has been said before, some refits are way better than others.  I was thinking more a cheaper magos and pay 50% of the refit that comes with him.

@Sig:
I thought of a caveat for the Auto Loaders refit, if we go with that, to balance it out.  'Auto Loaders are completely automated machine spirits, failed RO on vessels with Auto Loaders may not be rerolled.'

[Sigoroth]

For the 'choose your refit' on the Magos, as has been said before, some refits are way better than others.  I was thinking more a cheaper magos and pay 50% of the refit that comes with him.

Let's assume that, for the moment, all we're doing is changing the 1 random refit into 1 purchased refit. So you choose which you want, and pay the price (presumably while reducing the base price of the ships, since these already include the cost of a random refit). Now, the Archmagos used to give you 1 extra refit of your choice (ie, AWR). With the payment method we can do the exact same thing. You purchase 1 refit. When you add an Archmagos at +50 pts you get a Ld 8 admiral and a second free refit of your choice. Obviously this will mean that you choose the most expensive refit to be your "free" refit, but big deal, you do that anyway as it stands. No difference. Therefore there's no need to change this rule unless you're thinking of changing the number of refits allowed.

@Sig:
I thought of a caveat for the Auto Loaders refit, if we go with that, to balance it out.  'Auto Loaders are completely automated machine spirits, failed RO on vessels with Auto Loaders may not be rerolled.'

Well, it wouldn't need to be completely machine spirited. Since the ratings and technicians of the AM are half machine anyway and probably wouldn't respond so very greatly to someone up on high cracking the whip then we could get away with "mostly" machine spirits. Same effect, just not quite so absolute. As for the game rule, I'm down with that.

[lastspartacus]

With the refits I have in mind, there could be a near 30 point difference from the weakest to the strongest, and one of my goals in altering the refits is less random, more choice.  Part of that choice would be the option for cheaper vessels than vessels balanced around average refit value.
Thats why I want a 5 point refit option, so that the most basic Admech Lunar would sit right at 200.
Here is what I'm thinking.  Strip the Magos down to a bare bones and cheap, pure leadership admiral, that allows and must include another purchased refit with him.

As to costs and the like, base cruiser cost would now be +15+refit.  Then 45cm guns and special torps/nova choices as normal admech.

I'll say right now, if it wasn't obvious, that light cruisers and battleships will have adjusted refit costs.

Can anyone think of a suitable torp replacement option for str4 torpedo light cruisers?

If the HA just refuses to help the Voss patterns, I say make the dorsal lance they proposed an automatic admech inclusion, just like on the cruisers.

[RCgothic]

Voss Cruisers haven't been given S4 torps, they have remained at S2.

[lastspartacus]

ya, that was an 'in theory' bit, since my playgroup will likely keep str4 torps.


FDT says only one ship may be covered, at the cost of your own ship.  Is there any limit to normal massed turrets?  IIRC, Ships in btb can add a turret to any ship in btb as many times as needed.  If doing that with 2 turrets at 15cm is too OP, why not just make it just like massed turrets, 1 turret but 15cm range?

[lastspartacus]

Here are the base prices of capital ships in the Admech fleet list, sans refits. Leaving the Ark alone for now.
All Voss patterns incorporate standard a 30cm dorsal lance.


Emperor 370
Retribution 350
Oberon 340

Dictator 235
Tyrant 205
Lunar 200
Gothic 200
Defiant 140
Endeavor 130
Endurance 130

[lastspartacus]

Refits Points

1. Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix- 5
2. Fleet Defense Turrets- 5
3. Advanced Engines- 10
4. Emergency energy reserves- 10
5. Repulsor Shielding- 15
6. Augmented Weapon Relays- 20


Light Cruisers deduct 10 points to a minimum of 5.
Battleships increase by 10 points.

archmagos are 50 for the ld8 one and 75 for the ld9 one, each includes a reroll.  Up to 2 rerolls may be purchased for 50 each.
Ships embarking a magos must purchase a second refit.

new price of omnissiah's victory is 400 points, and must embark an archmagos veneratus.

[RCgothic]

Sounds sensible to me.

[Silent Requiem]

Is Augmented Weapons Relays really worth 40 points on the Ret?

Autoloaders could be another refit, and so could Prow Sensors. The latter, I think, is very much in the flavour of AM... after all, these would be the instruments with which they take scientific readings of celestial phenomena.

Also, I doubt anyone will take FDT in their current form, as they are only situationally useful. Suppose FDT gave every ship within a certain radius two extra turrets (but only re: AC or torps). Increase the price, but end up with an upgrade that every fleet would want at least one of, especially those that are ordinance light.

-Silent Requiem

[lastspartacus]

Well if you think about it Silent, 40 points for the best upgrade available puts the Ret only 10 points more than its original random-refit cost.
I do realize its an upgrade that will never be taken by the carriers, and I was considering a points reduction for those that had it, but I just don't wont to overcomplicate the process any further.  Will think about it.

Autoloaders and Prow Sensors I will include very soon for review and opinions.  What exactly would the sensors entail?  Lose armored prow for extra leadership?  That could be an option outside of the refit table, like novas and increased battery range.  Someone who knows precedent better than me: Is it in any way not kosher for prow sensor cruisers to carry torps?  Or has it just not been done yet?

The FDT's current proposal is to work just like normal btb massed turrets, but at 15cm.  Sound ok?

The points costs were made on common sense and no hard numbers crunching.  If anyone has opinions on their worth versus cost, let yourself be heard.