August 05, 2024, 07:20:11 PM

Author Topic: Nova Cannon limitations  (Read 80629 times)

Offline BaronIveagh

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #270 on: December 11, 2010, 04:09:14 AM »
Yes to limits, meh to changes.

Can't or don't want to figure out how to win eh?

I'd say something smarmy, but that statement was just arrogant enough for the both of us.  Though with that attitude, at least I wouldn't have to worry about ever losing against you.  (assuming that I've got the 20xxFAQ down yet)

I actually agree with Vaaish and like Ray's idea (having gotten to read some of his stuff that I didn't have, I appreciate his insights on the game).  But, rather then add my usual vitriolic personality to the mix, I figured that he and LS could argue the point well enough. 
non nobis domine non nobis sed nomine tua da na glorium

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #271 on: December 11, 2010, 04:31:26 AM »
I did infer from your rules that you'd like the NC to do jack squat and pointed you to the evidence that has been gathering that the NC is not overpowered and thus your changes were unwarranted.
It doesn't do jack squat, it has rules.
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Your rules were off base because you are reducing the range and increasing the scatter. Ie, you make the NC even less accurate and give a player less time to use it if you follow the reasoning you gave about shooting across diagonals. That gives a player less incentive to use the thing at all. You are further nerfing a weapon that HAS NO PROOF of being overpowered as it stands. Prove it's overpowered before trying to nerf it. Since that's your premise it's on you to prove it.
Its only reduced range in 6x4 tables at extreme angles.  If you actually read what I wrote you will see the IN player actually has more oppurtunity to use the NC with no minimum range.  I've been arguing it as best I can in pages back.  Its on you to read what you are arguing against.
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You see the NC in so many lists because it's iconic to the IN. That's their one special feature and it generally needs three to be effective. Any less and it's just flavor for the list that might do something here or there but certainly won't kill a fleet. Even with the maximum number of NC you can get in a 1500 point fleet you are looking at maybe two hits a turn and you've got the same odds of doing 1 hit as 6.
Thats great.  I take 60cm range weapons because its iconic in Chaos.  It just feels so fluffy using them, I just take at least 3 even if they are suboptimal weapons.  And at 1500 you are averaging 8 hits a turn on directs.  If you can point out anything besides generalities about proposed variations besides your favorite one, I'd sure appreciate it.

Offline Vaaish

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #272 on: December 11, 2010, 05:14:06 AM »
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It doesn't do jack squat, it has rules.
Your point is? You can give things as many rules as you want but it doesn't make them effective and what you proposed will make them less effective, in other words do jack squat.

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Its only reduced range in 6x4 tables at extreme angles.  If you actually read what I wrote you will see the IN player actually has more oppurtunity to use the NC with no minimum range.  I've been arguing it as best I can in pages back.  Its on you to read what you are arguing against.

Who said I was arguing against the no minimum range? My issue is the max range being taken down by 60cm and the 3d6 scatter at all ranges. 3d6 effectively makes the NC lay one bm or do nothing at all if you roll a miss on the scatter. It's rather predictable.

Seriously... Just look at the battle reports. There is a pattern of the NC being fine and not cracking open a cruiser each turn except when using Nates magic dice.
-Vaaish

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #273 on: December 11, 2010, 06:09:12 AM »
Warmaster Ld8
Pair of Slaughters Ld8(WM) & Ld9
Pair of Slaughters Ld6 & Ld 8
Pair of Slaughters Ld7 & Ld7
Pair of Slaughters Ld6 & Ld8
4 Iconoclasts Ld8

Why on earth didn't he squadron the WM with one of the Ld 7 ships? It would have added +1 leadership to that squadron and also (technically) added +1 leadership to the other squadron, since his leadership 8 is supposed to override the leadership 9 of the other ship, in effect reducing that squadron to leadership 8.

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The Nova Cannons scored two direct hits against the closest Iconoclast, rolling a 6 and a 2 to obliterate it four times over. At this stage, Steve was doing a slow hand clap. "[sarcasm]Nice one mate! You killed the **** out of that destroyer![/sarcasm]. The other five shots scored one direct hit on the Warmaster's vessel, doing 1pt of damage, and the other four scattered.

Ha, very funny.  ;D Still, if you hadn't have failed your leadership test those hits would have been on the WMs ship, which combined with the hits it had already taken would have been enough to obliterate it. This proves two things. One; it's possible for NC to be effective and two; it's possible to spoof their fire with proper tactical positioning of escorts.

@LS

While an all Slaughter fleet would be a perfect counter for a low AC all NC fleet, it is no more beardy than the all NC fleet. Also, a more viable and common "beardy" fleet would be an all Dev fleet. This would do just as well against the all NC fleet.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 10:06:20 AM by Sigoroth »

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #274 on: December 11, 2010, 07:47:22 AM »
Well ya Sig, no doubt its equally beardy.  But the point of the batrep was to prove NC aren't OP, and an all Slaughter fleet was chosen to take it on.
Like throwing a tiger in a shark tank to prove that tigers aren't OP ;)

@Vaaish
Firstly, when I suggest things, I don't do it to rage until it happens.  I do it because I'm just posting suggestions I havn't playtested or know nothing about.  So I throw out 3d6.  If you read my posts, later I mentioned 2d6 being an alternative.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #275 on: December 11, 2010, 07:58:07 AM »
Well... I guess I'll do a batrep... 5 KKs against 4 dominators! Orks are noted as bad against NCs due to their speed, and lack of AAF. One warlord and the cheapest IN commander will be chosen.

Offline horizon

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #276 on: December 11, 2010, 08:46:24 AM »
True, Orks vs NC fleets are perhaps the ideal setup for an NC fleet. Though the free Ork AAF should be used all the time. And Terrors. Terrors are much better then KK's.

Also: Take either a regular Ork fleet or a Deadshane Ork fleet.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #277 on: December 11, 2010, 09:09:35 AM »
IN fleet:
Dominator 8 Fleet admiral   1
Dominator 8                     2
Dominator 8                     3
Dominator 6                     4

Ork Fleet:
Kill-Kroozer 7 Warlord  1
Kill-Kroozer 5             2
Kill-Kroozer 8             3
Kill-Kroozer 7             4
Kill-Kroozer 8             5

Set up:
The game was played in the primary biosphere, with 1 small planet in the corner. The IN player won the dice off for choosing deployment zone and chose the side with the planet (to prevent the orks from hiding).

The IN set up at the table edge, and the ork ships set up one opposite of each vessel, and the additional kroozer set up between two.

First turn: Orks
Orks won the dice off, and AAF towards the enemy vessels.

First turn IN:
The In drifted 10cm forward, the two edge dominators turned to face the center KKs and fired their nova cannons.
Dom 4 LD to shoot at not nearest target, pass. Fires at KK2 and causes 6! points of damage. No criticals.
Dom 1 LD to shoot at KK2 pass. Miss.
Dom 2 LD to shoot at KK2 pass. Miss.
Dom 3 shoots at KK2. Miss.


Orks turn 2:
Fleet AAF towards dominators. KK2 is slowed significantly.
KK4+5 shoot at dom1. they manage to get 3 hits, cause a critical of thrusters damaged. (not like the ship cared)
KK1 rolls ld to shoot at dominator 1 fails. Shoots at dom2 instead, takes down a shield.KK
KK2 rolls ld to shoot at dom2 fails. Shoots at dom3. Nothing
KK3 shoots at dom4. Nothing.

IN turn 2:
Dominator 1 is slowed and is forced to sit on the two BMs.
Dom4 shoots it's nova cannon at kk2 (now closest thing in forward arc) Hit! for 1.
Dom3 fires at KK2, miss.
Dom2 too close to fire at KK1 fires at kk2 HIT! for 1. no critical.
Dom1 too close to kk4 fires at kk5 HIT for 5. 1 critical, shields collapse.
Dom 4 fires it's weapons batteries at KK3, now in its side arc. Fail.
Dom1 fails to repair.


Ork turn 3:
KK3 attempts lock on pass! Moves within 15 of dom4's side arc. KK4 attempts lock on fail, re-roll still fail.
KK4 shoots at Dom1 with guns and heavy guns (yes I took them). Dom1 braces, fail. Re-roll Pass. KK causes 5 hits (remember shields already down) Dom1 saves 2, takes 3 and is crippled. No criticals.
KK5 shoots at dom1 causing 1 unsaved hit critical fire. KK5 then shoots its side batteries at Dom2 no result.
KK1 shoots at dom2 with it's prow weapons (its within 15) causing 2 shields down. It shoots at dom3 with its side weapons. No effect.
KK2 rolls ld to shoot at dom2 fail. shoots at dom3 no effect.
KK3 shoots at dom4 causing 7 hits (2 shields down 5 hits), critical thrusters damaged. Shoots at dom3 with side weapons 1 shield down.

In cruisers attempt to repair criticals. Fire is not repaired and dom1 is at 1 hit remaining. Dom4 doesn't repair thrusters damaged.

In turn 3:
Dom1+ Dom 4 attempt to disengage. Both pass. Dom2 and dom3 lock on both pass. KK1 braces, pass.
Both fire at KK1 (within 15, abeam). Total 6 hits (1 shield 5 hits). No criticals. they shoot at kk3 causing 3 hits. no criticals.


Orks turn 4:
KK3 comes to new heading, pass. KK4 comes to new heading pass. KK5 come to new heading Fail.
KK2 moves between the dominators, the others turn accordingly. KK2 fires at Dom2 causing 2 shields down. it fires at dom3 causing 1 shield down.
KK3 rolls ld to shoot at dom2 pass. 1 hit, no critical.
KK1 fires ad dom2. 2 hits, no critical.


IN turn 4:
Dominators move forward and turn. They have no targets.


Orks turn 5:
KK5 attempts come to new heading Pass. KK1 attempts come to new heading, Pass.
KK3 shoots at Dom2 1 hit (shield) KK2 shoots at dom2, (within 15) 3 hits, 1 critical engine room damaged.
KK1 shoots ad dom2 1 hit. Dom 2 destroyed, drifting hulk.


IN turn 5:
Dom 3 disengages.



Result: (not counting hulk points/disengaging points)
In: 87vps
Orks: 285vps. A solid victory for the orks!

NCs are not overpowered. That was my first game against spammed NCs. Do not limit them.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 09:12:46 AM by Plaxor »

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #278 on: December 11, 2010, 09:11:03 AM »
@horizon

it was a regular ork fleet, and I wanted to show a worst case scenario, but IMO having another kroozer around was nice.

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #279 on: December 11, 2010, 09:47:09 AM »
So 1st turn to Imperials, on a normal size board, and...only one full turn of NC shooting?

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #280 on: December 11, 2010, 09:51:00 AM »
So 1st turn to Imperials, on a normal size board, and...only one full turn of NC shooting?

Orks had first turn. IN fired twice with NCs. This would've been three otherwise, and the battle would've looked much different. I imagine that the orks would've likely had a loss if they took another 4-6 point hit. Which is why NCs are so random and have such a luck based dependency.

Also as a note I think having NCs makes you want to fire them, wheras probably on the IN's second turn would've been to maneuver in weapons range and lock on. Although I guess this wouldn't have been possible with Dom1. So it's less relevant.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 09:55:57 AM by Plaxor »

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #281 on: December 11, 2010, 10:33:25 AM »
Well ya Sig, no doubt its equally beardy.  But the point of the batrep was to prove NC aren't OP, and an all Slaughter fleet was chosen to take it on.
Like throwing a tiger in a shark tank to prove that tigers aren't OP ;)

My money's on the tiger.  :P

Anywho, there're two ways of looking at it. Firstly you can say "all NC = beardy, so since we're playing beardy how is it compared to other beardy fleets?". In this case you're giving an even footing and suggesting that if it is demonstrably overpowered in this instance then it deserves more attention than other beardy alternatives. In other words, if it beats the crap out of beardy fleets there's something wrong and it needs nerfing. So this is the type of arrangement you should be using if you're of the opinion that the NC is overpowered and needs nerfing. If it doesn't beat the snot out of these alternative beardy fleets then the data become inconclusive.


The other way is to put a beardy fleet like this up against a non-beardy fleet. This is for those that want to prove that it isn't overpowered. The argument goes that if a non-beardy fleet (like Orks) can contest a battle against the spamming of what is apparently meant to be a hard counter to them then this proves that the NC is not overpowered. If the NC fleet does beat the snot out of them then this proves nothing (since being beardy and taking a hard counter to a fleet should show this result).

So showing both types in this thread provides convergent evidence. We have anecdotal (not yet significant) evidence that the NC is not OP (Orks vs NC = Ork win) and we have an absence of evidence that it is (Beardy Chaos vs NC = BC win). So far the evidence has suggested that the Imperials really miss their torps when the battle progresses.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #282 on: December 11, 2010, 10:44:44 AM »
So far the evidence has suggested that the Imperials really miss their torps when the battle progresses.[/color]

Exactly. Torps would've probably done more damage, as the kroozers would've definitely ran right into them. Total number of internal hits caused by NCs in that game was what? 10? The torps would've done at least 6 damage, likely at least ten, and for a cheaper price. Although the cost is that the fleet would have to reload to use them more than once.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #283 on: December 11, 2010, 12:28:17 PM »
I'd say something smarmy, but that statement was just arrogant enough for the both of us.  Though with that attitude, at least I wouldn't have to worry about ever losing against you.  (assuming that I've got the 20xxFAQ down yet)

What more proof do you want that NCs don't need limits? You obviously think the NC is still overpowered. People have provided you enough proof that an all NC fleet is not overpowered and you're still asking for limits. So this only means you either can't figure out how to beat it or don't want to figure out how to beat it.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #284 on: December 11, 2010, 12:48:40 PM »
So far we have:

Nate: NC vs Regular Chaos: NC Win (But had ungoldly dice rolls, Chaos didn't AAF and also had poor luck)
Nate: NC vs Regular Chaos: NC Win (But had ungoldly dice rolls, Chaos didn't AAF and also had poor luck)

Eudamon: NC vs Regular Chaos: Chaos Win convcincingly.

RCgothic: NC vs Regular Chaos: Chaos Win convincingly.
RCgothic: NC vs Regular Chaos: Chaos Win convincingly.
RCgothic: NC vs Beardy Chaos: Chaos total victory.

Plaxor: NC vs KKs: The Universally underpowered KKs still won.