Nova Cannon limitations

[Sigoroth]

Since the standard 6' x 4' table that the game was designed for is only 120cm wide I don't see how you can think that 110cm is too close. Ships would have to be placed on the very edges of the table to be further away. And what would be the point of doing that exactly? Allow an IN player more room to fire his NC into? Even long range fleets like Chaos want to close the distance to at least 60cm. Unless you're planning on both just sitting at extreme range and spamming AC or using NC, 'Geddon Gun or ABSFs I don't even see the point of setting up on the short table edges.

[commander]

Since the standard 6' x 4' table that the game was designed for is only 120cm wide I don't see how you can think that 110cm is too close. Ships would have to be placed on the very edges of the table to be further away. And what would be the point of doing that exactly? Allow an IN player more room to fire his NC into? Even long range fleets like Chaos want to close the distance to at least 60cm. Unless you're planning on both just sitting at extreme range and spamming AC or using NC, 'Geddon Gun or ABSFs I don't even see the point of setting up on the short table edges.

When I'm playing with or against NC, we always deploy on the short table edges. Why should a 'NC player' have to give up range? Unless ofcourse the 'scenery' would prevent such long range fire.

[Sigoroth]

When I'm playing with or against NC, we always deploy on the short table edges. Why should a 'NC player' have to give up range? Unless ofcourse the 'scenery' would prevent such long range fire.

Because most of the scenarios call for the long table edges to be used.

[commander]

That still does not justify why one must give up the advantage of the long reach of one of his weaponsystems.

[horizon]

?
The scenarios dictate how you set-up, not the choice of your fleet.

Fleet Engagement is very specific on the boxes used after formation choice.
Cruiser Clash is also very clear.

The only scenarios having short edge as mandatory are exterminatus and planetary assault. (And Convoy but well, normally the convoy has no NC ).

Raiders, Surprise Attack attackers choose which side they come on from. And given attack ratings the IN will mostly be defender.

[commander]

Well, scenario's mostly suck for NC ship / fleet.
On a 'scenery heavy' table, yes I can understand deployment on the long table edges, firing lanes are very chooked up with asteroid fields and dust clouds etc. In the oposite case, a relatively empty table: no. Why would they hold fire and lose the one advantage they have: very long range fire.
As I said: when handling NC my gaming group deploys on the short table edges if 'terrain' is scarce. Let them enjoy their long reach.

EDIT: these are no arguments for a limitation or not. It's an entirely other discussion.

[BaronIveagh]

Given that the standard seperation distance is 60cm between deployment zones, I wouldn't call 110cm close.

One of these days when there's a game going on I really need to take a picture of our gaming surface.  When we take short sides, I'm a good ten meters away, easy.

[RCgothic]

If you're deploying using the Scenarios, the enemy should never be more than 120cm away.

If you're not deploying using scenarios, the Nova Cannon only has a range of 150cm anyway, which is less than one extra turn of movement. You could play on a 10km board, and Nova Cannons would not be any more effective.

The same tactics as before should work:

#1. Go AAF as much as possible. Carriers start loaded, so can AAF as well.
#2. Screen your battle line with cheap escorts. If it takes three Nova Cannon shells to waste one cobra/equivalent, job done.
#3. Squadron your first 2-3 cruisers, and always move so that they're an equal distance from the enemy's fleet. This will dilute their fire and magnify the effect of multiple ships with shields.
#4. Allow any ship that's taken more than one or two hits past shields to drop back in formation. Better to allow another cruiser to take some damage than to risk a ship being crippled.
#5. Don't brace unless absolutely necessary - say that despite your squadroning and escort screen the opponent manages to focus 4 or more Nova Cannons on the same target.

Remember, the Nova Cannon is a weapon of terror. Occasionally it can sting you, but for the most part its bark is worse than its bite. The average damage from a Nova shot is in the region of 1.3 hits, and it has to get past shields. The average S6 torp volley will do 1.7 hits, past shields, plus any follow up attacks on subsequent targets, another 0.75 hits on a single target. Call it 0.35 if there's a 50% chance of hitting a second ship.

To match that one turn of damage, the Nova Cannon has to fire an average of three more times than the ship armed with torps. Suppose that the two fleets start out of range and the Imperial ships move up to 150cm first to fire. 1 shot. They get a 2nd shot at 101cm, and a 3rd shot at 52. There should be no fourth shot.

In a fleet with 7 Novas, that's 21 shots. The average leadership is 7.5, so of those 21 shots, just under 9 will shoot at the escort screen. The remaining 12, split between two squadroned ships over 3 turns, can expect an average of 3.3 hits past shields, divided between two cruisers. Of course, all that is assuming open terrain and an Imperial first turn. Even from 160cm starting distance, a chaos fleet still has a pretty good chance of closing too quickly for an Imperial 3rd shot.

The strength of the Nova Cannon is that if the enemy stays at range, it will eventually wear them down without ability to reply, so it forces them to come close into the teeth of torpedos, which will actually do more damage. Spamming Nova Cannons still forces the enemy to come to you, but leaves you almost entirely toothless when they do.

[commander]

I know, but one extra shot is one extra shot from x nova cannons a turn. One could be lucky. It is a possibility that should not be taken away because of 'scenario'. But this 'argument' has nothing to do with the topic, so I'll drop it.

[BaronIveagh]

If you're deploying using the Scenarios, the enemy should never be more than 120cm away.

If you're not deploying using scenarios, the Nova Cannon only has a range of 150cm anyway, which is less than one extra turn of movement. You could play on a 10km board, and Nova Cannons would not be any more effective.

The same tactics as before should work:

#1. Go AAF as much as possible. Carriers start loaded, so can AAF as well.
#2. Screen your battle line with cheap escorts. If it takes three Nova Cannon shells to waste one cobra/equivalent, job done.
#3. Squadron your first 2-3 cruisers, and always move so that they're an equal distance from the enemy's fleet. This will dilute their fire and magnify the effect of multiple ships with shields.
#4. Allow any ship that's taken more than one or two hits past shields to drop back in formation. Better to allow another cruiser to take some damage than to risk a ship being crippled.
#5. Don't brace unless absolutely necessary - say that despite your squadroning and escort screen the opponent manages to focus 4 or more Nova Cannons on the same target.

Remember, the Nova Cannon is a weapon of terror. Occasionally it can sting you, but for the most part its bark is worse than its bite. The average damage from a Nova shot is in the region of 1.3 hits, and it has to get past shields. The average S6 torp volley will do 1.7 hits, past shields, plus any follow up attacks on subsequent targets, another 0.75 hits on a single target. Call it 0.35 if there's a 50% chance of hitting a second ship.

To match that one turn of damage, the Nova Cannon has to fire an average of three more times than the ship armed with torps. Suppose that the two fleets start out of range and the Imperial ships move up to 150cm first to fire. 1 shot. They get a 2nd shot at 101cm, and a 3rd shot at 52. There should be no fourth shot.

In a fleet with 7 Novas, that's 21 shots. The average leadership is 7.5, so of those 21 shots, just under 9 will shoot at the escort screen. The remaining 12, split between two squadroned ships over 3 turns, can expect an average of 3.3 hits past shields, divided between two cruisers. Of course, all that is assuming open terrain and an Imperial first turn. Even from 160cm starting distance, a chaos fleet still has a pretty good chance of closing too quickly for an Imperial 3rd shot.

The strength of the Nova Cannon is that if the enemy stays at range, it will eventually wear them down without ability to reply, so it forces them to come close into the teeth of torpedos, which will actually do more damage. Spamming Nova Cannons still forces the enemy to come to you, but leaves you almost entirely toothless when they do.

First, bare in mind that until I talked to horizon a few months ago on warseer, we were still using the 'guess range' for NC.  So far though, my experience has been that they're still too powerful.  Psychological weapon or no.  

Second, I don't typically close.  I tend to hang back as far as possible and send in AC.  

Third, scenarios work fine on the table, as long as they don't have specific measurements, though some are trickier then others.

Fourth, unless I'm loaded with torps, a tough thing for chaos to pull off, your argument doesn't hold as much weight.  Now, if I was still playing fast imperial, or with the new IN fleet I'm still building, then yes, there is some substance to this. 

[RCgothic]

Well of course you're going to get pounded if you loiter in front of a load of Nova Cannons. As demonstrated above, even Carriers stand a reasonable chance at close range, particularly when the enemy has traded away all of his close range forward firepower.

The problem is clearly the way you play, not the weapon in question. Eldar would routinely get slaughtered too if their fleet commander decided that the best way to engage a WB heavy opponent was to loiter in their broadside WB fire. So I guess WBs should be nerfed as well then?

[horizon]

Second, I don't typically close.  I tend to hang back as far as possible and send in AC.

Well, given a heavy broadside Chaos fleet (Desolator, 2x Carnage, 2x Devestation, 2x Acheron) that tactic is normally good and effective. But when some weird IN players goes all NC you have to prepare and adjust tactics. Every battle needs a tactical thought, you cannot always act the same and while that Chaos fleet can dictate a lot on the field versus the NC it needs to adjust in the pre-game plan. So, move over, get that AAF done and be with it.

And, indeed, if the table is 100metres, the Nova is still 150cm. And perhaps you should close the ranges on the table to get more standards anyway. I also am quite intrigued on how you move a ship in the middle of the table....

edit: A Devestation or Styx in a Chaos fleet has a (max.focus.) broadside of 6 batteries @ 2 lances. That's the same as the average IN gunnery cruiser (Lunar). So...

[Sigoroth]

First, bare in mind that until I talked to horizon a few months ago on warseer, we were still using the 'guess range' for NC.  So far though, my experience has been that they're still too powerful.  Psychological weapon or no.  

Oookay, but on the other hand you have just been given some very sound advice on how to overcome the NC. Remember, the IN don't get free NC on their ships in addition to what they would otherwise receive. They lose their torps to take them. So an all NC fleet has lost their shotgun.

Second, I don't typically close.  I tend to hang back as far as possible and send in AC.  

Well to that I say PEBKAC. "Problem exists between keyboard and chair" to coin a phrase. Or how about "user error: replace and retry"? In other words, when facing a NC fleet, CLOSE.

The only time you should "hang back as far as possible and send in AC" against a NC fleet is when you have a pure carrier fleet, ie, not just AC superiority but crushing AC superiority AND have a safe and stable place to park your fleet. Say, in high orbit on the opposite side of a medium to large planet. Short of this, you do not hang back against a NC fleet.

Third, scenarios work fine on the table, as long as they don't have specific measurements, though some are trickier then others.

Look, if you want to play on gargantuan tables, then that's up to you. However, the game and the scenarios are designed for a specific table size, with a little variation possible. Commander's argument for using the short table edges when using NC is that he can't see why they shouldn't get this extra range. Well, I can see a good many reasons why not myself. Maybe the ships weren't expected and so weren't detected until they got close. Maybe they were expected but the direction was unknown so by the time they were detected and the fleet swung around they were closer than the IN would want.

There is reason to suggest that ship sensors just aren't that fantastic. When a ship goes on special orders they give the enemy +1 LD. Presumably the extra signals that they output give the enemy a better idea of what's going on. This suggests their sensors aren't fantastic to begin with. Similarly celestial phenomena such as dust clouds (and BMs) mess with a ships sensors. Mimic engines and holofields each spoof sensors. In escalating engagement we can't even tell what's incoming except as general 'blips on the radar'. So, a combination of unknown enemy activity and unreliable sensor data typically prevent the IN from engaging at extreme range.

In certain tactical scenarios this is changed, such as when defending a planet and you know from which direction the enemy is going to come, etc. In short, the game is designed for no more than a 6' x 4' board, so only really needs to be balanced at this size, with perhaps a little variation.

Fourth, unless I'm loaded with torps, a tough thing for chaos to pull off, your argument doesn't hold as much weight.  Now, if I was still playing fast imperial, or with the new IN fleet I'm still building, then yes, there is some substance to this. 

What?

[BaronIveagh]

Well to that I say PEBKAC. "Problem exists between keyboard and chair" to coin a phrase. Or how about "user error: replace and retry"? In other words, when facing a NC fleet, CLOSE.

Actually, if you have enough room to maneuver, that's exactly how to beat it.  If you're outside the 150cm range and can keep out of it, just pound them with AC or torps.  The problem is when you have to fly down their throats when they're defending some sort of objective.

There is reason to suggest that ship sensors just aren't that fantastic. When a ship goes on special orders they give the enemy +1 LD. Presumably the extra signals that they output give the enemy a better idea of what's going on. This suggests their sensors aren't fantastic to begin with. Similarly celestial phenomena such as dust clouds (and BMs) mess with a ships sensors. Mimic engines and holofields each spoof sensors. In escalating engagement we can't even tell what's incoming except as general 'blips on the radar'. So, a combination of unknown enemy activity and unreliable sensor data typically prevent the IN from engaging at extreme range.

Actually, it probably has very little to do with the sensors themselves and more to do with the targeting cogitators that are used in 'current' IN ships to predict target motion and time on target.  FFG had an interesting little thing in RT with an archeotech targeting system.  Or, at least, that's this week's fluff. 


As far as fixing NC, I'd just have them make a non-SO reload test.  To offset this a bit, since it would be a tad crippling, add in the special NC shells at similar costs to special torps.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Actually, if you have enough room to maneuver, that's exactly how to beat it.  If you're outside the 150cm range and can keep out of it, just pound them with AC or torps.  The problem is when you have to fly down their throats when they're defending some sort of objective.

Eh? How would you expect to do so? Sooner or later you'll run out of table space and still have to face the NC guns. Best way is to close. Staying at range is just begging to be shot to pieces later if not sooner.

As far as fixing NC, I'd just have them make a non-SO reload test.  To offset this a bit, since it would be a tad crippling, add in the special NC shells at similar costs to special torps.

Hell yes it would be crippling and not tad. If you want to limit the NC then fix the NC and make it better. Then you put in limits on how many one can bring. Simple enough concept.