Nova Cannon limitations

[Sigoroth]

Tyrants ... blech! Anywho, again, as has been pointed out, the Chaos player made a lot of classic mistakes against the NC fleet. He allowed the NC to impact him psychologically, he had ordnance superiority yet failed to make his opponent come to him, he stayed in clear fire lines, avoiding terrain and used his AC poorly. All this while being in the best terrain for NC (ie, huge tables). However, I get the feeling you knew all this before anyone said anything anyway.

As for the test fleets, well you're right in that Tau and Orks are the most at risk to NCs. Orks tend to make use of the optional large base more than anyone else and their cruisers only have 1 shield. On top of this they have a lot of ships, which makes it easier for a scatter to be damaging. Tau Explorers have large bases, only 1 shield, can't afford to brace and represent a fair points investment, being the most expensive ships in the Tau fleet.

However, if you find that these fleets get pasted by all NC fleets, and you may, I don't think that tells us much about the balance of the NC. One reason for this is because the Orks are a very poor fleet, regardless of NC. You could take an all AC fleet against Orks and conclude that AC are too strong due to the result. Similarly you could take a fast and manoeuvrable fleet against Orks and conclude that this also needs nerfing after seeing the result. However, probably a better conclusion to all this is that Orks need help.

The Tau, on the other hand, are a strong fleet. So, if the NC performs well against this strong fleet then this means more than against the Orks, yes? Well, yes and no. On the face of it it does mean more. Because if this weapon can defeat a strong fleet then it must be stronger. That at least is the implication. However, in this case it's just that the NC is uniquely capable of taking advantage of the Tau weakness to a great degree. The Tau were only allowed to be so strong because they had such weaknesses. The NC is strong against these weaknesses, but it is not so strong when you take it up against different fleets. It's rather mediocre against Tyranids or Chaos, and distinctly poor against any form of Eldar. It could be great or useless against Necrons, depending wildly upon luck and whether the Necron player braces or can get the opportunity to go AAF to close.

So taking all NC to a tournament would be like taking all AC, or all WBs or all lances. An all WB fleet would be great up against Eldar, OK against Chaos, and rubbish against SM. An all NC fleet would be great against Tau, so-so against Chaos and rubbish against Eldar. All lances does well in some circumstances, rubbish in others, etc. If you don't have a versatile fleet then you face the possibility of running up against a hard counter. Similarly, a lot of fleets have a hard counter weapon system.

Agreed. I call a limit on the Explorer/Hero combo and only 3 Nightshades per 500pts....

Heh.

The biggest lesson Bob and I took away is that while most people are gentlemen and just apply simple logic, we can't rely on EVERYONE to be gentlemen on the tables, especially when tourneys, prizes, etc. become a factor. Most of the comments here are along the lines of NC's are limited by the players themselves. If players are deciding themselves to limit a weapon system, that either means its broken, its too cheap or too easy to have. Changing the mechanic (broken) or price (too cheap) is more difficult to do at this juncture than simply limiting it (too easy to have) in a fleet.

Hmm, I tend to be self-limiting with my NC selection but this is mainly because I don't see it as being a fantastic weapon. I much prefer having versatility in my fleet. Having some torp ships in a NC fleet is very useful and I also like Gothics as they're a great fleet support ship (you can't manoeuvre your entire fleet into optimal firing positions). So, I don't take pure NC fleets because I don't think they're that strong (any more). I'm not against playing against all NC fleets. If I'm playing one of my regular opponents then I don't give a rats arse about them and I'll take whatever fleet is legal, no matter how beardy. Just to grind them into the ground and point and laugh at them while I do. However, if I were playing a kid or a (non-regular) newbie I'd definitely not be so cut-throat. After all, there's no need to be. I'll win anyway, even if I try not to. Newbs are such newbs. In those games I'm more concerned with pointing out what he could've done instead so that he learns the intricacies and develops an interest. Still, I suppose others might limit themselves because they don't think it'd be fair to take all NCs, even against their regular opponents.


P.S. - Nate: I put each paragraph in its own color bracket, so you can break it up easier. Aren't I nice. Now do as I say.  

[Vaaish]

Nate, I'd suggest this to play for chaos:

2x Carnage
2xDevastation
Planet Killer
3x infidel

[trynerror]

We have not yet run this by Ray. However, here's the line-item proposal for the 2010 FAQ:
No more than two Nova Cannon-equipped vessels may be taken for every 750 points or portion thereof in the fleet.

This means 4 are possible in 1000 points ? Or is the "two" a typo ^^

We go with one per 500 points in our group most of the time and that´s ok.

[flybywire-E2C]

Hi everyone! As the first Chaos test battle was underway since yesterday, I let my son use the fleet he wanted instead of using Horizon's fleet list suggestions, which we will use this weekend. Because a seven-Dominator Imperial fleet left me 170 points shy of 1500 points, two of them were swapped for Mars battlecruisers. Here's how the fleet list broke out (neither fleet had commanders, re-rolls, special bonuses, etc):

Imperials
Dominator x5 (no squadrons)
Mars x2 (single squadron)

Chaos
Executor
Acheron
Slaughter x3 (no squadrons)
Murder x2 (single squadron, one was lance variant)
Devastation
Iconoclast x3 (squadron)

Rolling randomly, we had two asteroid fields on his side of the table and three gas clouds on my side of the table. He used the asteroids to great effect, using his high-Ld ships like Eldar to navigate through them to keep pushing toward me while I couldn’t shoot at him with NC’s. His Slaughters skirted the asteroid field until they couldn’t hide behind them anymore, then instead of going around them to give me an extra turn with NC’s, he actually turned toward the field and then AAF’ed THROUGH it (ballsy!) to close the range. For this two of his three Slaughters failed the navigation Ld check against 3D6, but one took two hits and one only took one.  He kept his Iconoclasts way out in front and spread far apart to force me to do Ld checks to ignore them, which proved successful in one instance.

My son is no noob- he’s been playing Chaos for the better part of ten years, and I have seen him routinely smoke grown adults. He is experienced playing against any fleet in general, and as Imperials are my favorite fleet, he is experienced against them in particular.

I would love to sit here and copy down a detailed BatRep from my notes, but that would be pointless. I completely wiped out his fleet, leaving only one capital ship alive but crippled (the all-gun Murder), though admittedly one of his Iconoclasts survived as well. In exchange, he crippled ONE of my Dominators, another took two hits and the rest of my fleet was untouched. As a Chaos player he said afterward the rule needs to be one NC for 500 points, but I said we would not be restricting it that much even if we did so.

Taking a look at the Chaos fleet lists recommended here, is this the way we want to go? I spend a lot of time prow-on and closing. Closing lances would probably be the best bet against my favored strategy so I think we will do the next test battle with Chaos fleet #2:
 1x Styx + 2x Devestation
1x Hades + 3x Murder

Any objections?

Regardless of the outcome, I will provide a more detailed BatRep tomorrow. My son likes this fleet list, by the way.

Admiral, we are not going to rush into this decision. Frankly, there is no rush, and we are NOT basing this on one test battle or one bad report at a single game store. We can and will test this again and again before any call is made, and I can take this over to Campaign HQ (now Atlantis Comics) in Norfolk this weekend and throw other players besides my son against my all-NC fleet to see how it goes.

-   Nate

[flybywire-E2C]

However, if you find that these fleets get pasted by all NC fleets, and you may, I don't think that tells us much about the balance of the NC. One reason for this is because the Orks are a very poor fleet, regardless of NC. You could take an all AC fleet against Orks and conclude that AC are too strong due to the result. Similarly you could take a fast and manoeuvrable fleet against Orks and conclude that this also needs nerfing after seeing the result. However, probably a better conclusion to all this is that Orks need help.

Hi Sigoroth! You are right- Orks need some more tweaks, keeping in mind they are SUPPOSED to be the bottom-deck fleet of the game so the tweaks will consist primarily of how players can tailor their ships if desired. We have to be REALLY careful as to how we decide to make Orks better. We do NOT want to incorporate yet another odd, race specific mechanic, such as re-writing all the profiles to give them more guns but make them worse against the gunnery chart, which in most aspects has a net effect of zero.

The Tau, on the other hand, are a strong fleet. So, if the NC performs well against this strong fleet then this means more than against the Orks, yes? Well, yes and no. On the face of it it does mean more. Because if this weapon can defeat a strong fleet then it must be stronger. That at least is the implication. However, in this case it's just that the NC is uniquely capable of taking advantage of the Tau weakness to a great degree. The Tau were only allowed to be so strong because they had such weaknesses. The NC is strong against these weaknesses, but it is not so strong when you take it up against different fleets. It's rather mediocre against Tyranids or Chaos, and distinctly poor against any form of Eldar. It could be great or useless against Necrons, depending wildly upon luck and whether the Necron player braces or can get the opportunity to go AAF to close.

Agreed. If we try too hard to make every fleet exactly equal to everyone else, then in the end there is no variety at all, and one strategy set will work the same for and against every fleet. Tau are a great fleet with specific weaknesses because the GW fleet is basically enormous re-packaged merchant ships, and the FW fleet consist of true warships that are better than Orks but not as good as Imps/Chaos.

So taking all NC to a tournament would be like taking all AC, or all WBs or all lances. An all WB fleet would be great up against Eldar, OK against Chaos, and rubbish against SM. An all NC fleet would be great against Tau, so-so against Chaos and rubbish against Eldar. All lances does well in some circumstances, rubbish in others, etc. If you don't have a versatile fleet then you face the possibility of running up against a hard counter. Similarly, a lot of fleets have a hard counter weapon system.

Agreed. I call a limit on the Explorer/Hero combo and only 3 Nightshades per 500pts....

Heh.

The biggest lesson Bob and I took away is that while most people are gentlemen and just apply simple logic, we can't rely on EVERYONE to be gentlemen on the tables, especially when tourneys, prizes, etc. become a factor. Most of the comments here are along the lines of NC's are limited by the players themselves. If players are deciding themselves to limit a weapon system, that either means its broken, its too cheap or too easy to have. Changing the mechanic (broken) or price (too cheap) is more difficult to do at this juncture than simply limiting it (too easy to have) in a fleet.

Hmm, I tend to be self-limiting with my NC selection but this is mainly because I don't see it as being a fantastic weapon. I much prefer having versatility in my fleet. Having some torp ships in a NC fleet is very useful and I also like Gothics as they're a great fleet support ship (you can't manoeuvre your entire fleet into optimal firing positions). So, I don't take pure NC fleets because I don't think they're that strong (any more). I'm not against playing against all NC fleets. If I'm playing one of my regular opponents then I don't give a rats arse about them and I'll take whatever fleet is legal, no matter how beardy. Just to grind them into the ground and point and laugh at them while I do. However, if I were playing a kid or a (non-regular) newbie I'd definitely not be so cut-throat. After all, there's no need to be. I'll win anyway, even if I try not to. Newbs are such newbs. In those games I'm more concerned with pointing out what he could've done instead so that he learns the intricacies and develops an interest. Still, I suppose others might limit themselves because they don't think it'd be fair to take all NCs, even against their regular opponents.

I agree with you. Like you, I prefer a variety in my fleet (especially in tournaments!) I know how to counter beardy players and tactics as well, but everyone knows you can’t expect a new player to be able to do this. My point is that I’m really worried about a weapon system that requires experienced players to overcome when used en-masse or requires gentlemen’s agreements to keep it self-limiting. An all-gun fleet is really powerful against Eldar, but even Eldar won’t get completely wasted playing an all-guns fleet (not to mention Eldar are a difficult fleet for new players to use in the first place, but that’s another post). SM’s will fare poorly against an all-lance fleet but won’t get annihilated against a squad of Gothics.

Here’s what I saw today. My son is an ECXCELLENT Chaos player. He used brilliant tactics, some of which I wouldn’t have thought of using myself, such as going AAF through an asteroid field with Slaughters because they happened to have high Ld. He played brilliantly and still got pasted. It will take a number of playtest games and detailed BatReps. To know which way we need to go one way or the other, but relying on players to be grownups is sadly not a viable plan of action, as much as it should be!

P.S. - Nate: I put each paragraph in its own color bracket, so you can break it up easier. Aren't I nice. Now do as I say. 

I appreciate it- thanks!! 

- Nate

[russ_c]

I really like how this conversation has evolved.  Great work Nate on starting a diverse set of play test.  But you've slightly skewed the data by not taking a commander, thus allowing you twice the AC in a 7NC fleet.  I think you should immediately change this in your playtest to proper reflect the fact no one could legally use the above fleet.

I wish I had more local people to get some test games in.  I have no doubt that your son is a seasoned commander and from the sound of it he plays a pretty tactically thoughtful and entertaining game.  Even a brilliant commander will have a hard time without the proper tools!  I see three issues with the first Chaos fleet the two of you tested ( some of the suggested fleets address various aspects) and would encourage you to craft a few more fleets with these things in mind.  I don't believe any of my issues would necessarily "tailor" the fleet.

First, the Slaughters.  When I face 4 Novas at 1250 / 1500 I have a single purpose, close as fast as possible and cripple each ship as quickly as possible.  I really think they should be paired and squadroned.  The idea is to pick on a single target to increase your odds of a single turn cripple or brace.  Once accomplished you move on to the next ship.  Actually, you should try an all Slaughter fleet against your all Dominator fleet just to see what happens.

Next, it lacks a proper balance of AC.  Even if this fleet had just one more Devastation, you would have a fair amount of AC to create more targets for the opponent.  If he doesn't spend a NC to deal with them then great.  If he wastes a NC shot to clear them, great!

Lastly, the fleet has no Fire Magnet ( a ship with 4 shields ).  It's sole purpose is to take a serious beating so the rest of your fleet can swarm in.  You know exactly what happens when the opponent doesn't chose to deal with that ship!

I like the fleet suggestion that Vaaish posted.  It's a good test of 2 of my above points.  But it is tailored and I think the Planet Killer might sacrifice to many points.  By the way, it sounds like your son's use of the Iconoclasts was brilliant.  I think the below fleet would be my starting point:

Commander 8Ld
1 Desolator
2x Slaughter
2x Slaughter
2x Dev
3x Iconoclast

If your'e doing no commanders then I guess you could exchange the Icos for Infidels.

Russ

[flybywire-E2C]

I really like how this conversation has evolved.  Great work Nate on starting a diverse set of play test.  But you've slightly skewed the data by not taking a commander, thus allowing you twice the AC in a 7NC fleet.  I think you should immediately change this in your playtest to proper reflect the fact no one could legally use the above fleet.

I wish I had more local people to get some test games in.  I have no doubt that your son is a seasoned commander and from the sound of it he plays a pretty tactically thoughtful and entertaining game.  Even a brilliant commander will have a hard time without the proper tools!  I see three issues with the first Chaos fleet the two of you tested ( some of the suggested fleets address various aspects) and would encourage you to craft a few more fleets with these things in mind.  I don't believe any of my issues would necessarily "tailor" the fleet.

First, the Slaughters.  When I face 4 Novas at 1250 / 1500 I have a single purpose, close as fast as possible and cripple each ship as quickly as possible.  I really think they should be paired and squadroned.  The idea is to pick on a single target to increase your odds of a single turn cripple or brace.  Once accomplished you move on to the next ship.  Actually, you should try an all Slaughter fleet against your all Dominator fleet just to see what happens.

Next, it lacks a proper balance of AC.  Even if this fleet had just one more Devastation, you would have a fair amount of AC to create more targets for the opponent.  If he doesn't spend a NC to deal with them then great.  If he wastes a NC shot to clear them, great!

Lastly, the fleet has no Fire Magnet ( a ship with 4 shields ).  It's sole purpose is to take a serious beating so the rest of your fleet can swarm in.  You know exactly what happens when the opponent doesn't chose to deal with that ship!

I like the fleet suggestion that Vaaish posted.  It's a good test of 2 of my above points.  But it is tailored and I think the Planet Killer might sacrifice to many points.  By the way, it sounds like your son's use of the Iconoclasts was brilliant.  I think the below fleet would be my starting point:

Commander 8Ld
1 Desolator
2x Slaughter
2x Slaughter
2x Dev
3x Iconoclast

If your'e doing no commanders then I guess you could exchange the Icos for Infidels.

Russ

My son and I both decided to max out on ships for this playtest, buut you make a valid point that technically the fleets were illegal. I will bring this up with him and see what route he wants to go. I can trade out a Mars for another Dominator to buy a Commander, though I will probably have to proxy it with a Lunar- 5 Dominators is all I have built, and two of those were only drybrushed! (Playing with unfinished models is a personal peeve of mine- sorry.)

I'll ask him about your proposed Slaughter-fat fleet list (we have the models to do it), but I know he was unhappy about how dodging and closing as fast as possible didn't help him against massed NC's and he wanted to see if massed AC can somehow negate the NC's reach to an extent. I'll still have one Mars, and he's talking about wanting 3x+ AC superiority for our next battle, which admittedly plays to Chaos's strength.

- Nate

[horizon]

Painted models have better dice.

One question on your battle:
Table size and which scenario setup?

180cm x 120cm is the standard table size so should be used for testing.

Cruiser clash means fleets are "only" need to be apart a minimum of 60cm. One AAF of the Slaughters or any other Chaos ship would bring them under 30cm => Nova Cannon unable to fire.

Fleet Engagement is always interesting to play. Same goes to Escalating Engagement.

[flybywire-E2C]

Painted models have better dice.

One question on your battle:
Table size and which scenario setup?

180cm x 120cm is the standard table size so should be used for testing.

Cruiser clash means fleets are "only" need to be apart a minimum of 60cm. One AAF of the Slaughters or any other Chaos ship would bring them under 30cm => Nova Cannon unable to fire.

Fleet Engagement is always interesting to play. Same goes to Escalating Engagement.

My table is 145x145. Its the best I could do for fold-up tables (we use tw identical ones) that fit in my son's room so that's what we're using.

We always roll celestial phenomena randomly, but for the playtest we always play Cruiser Clash because other more detailed or restrictive scenarios may reveal/conceal specific strengths and shortcomings. Cruiser Clash is the plain-vanilla generic scenario of the game most suitable for playtesting, though for individual ships I normally use Gauntlet.

To simulate larger tables, we take advantage of the fact that while the fleets start across the table from each other, they don't necessarily have to start directly perpendicular to each other. In the last playtest he got to set up the table so I got to pick the side to start from. I won the set-up roll and made him set up first. He set up on one far corner of his 90cm "pocket" because it gave him the longest time hidden by asteroids so he could get AC in space and not take NC rounds immediately. I set up on the opposite far corner of my 90cm "pocket" to give me as many turns as possible getting NC rounds downrange once he finally peeked out of the rocks. While these were the specifics, we did not in any way set up differently than as described for Cruiser Clash.

I will say that by the time he actually came out of the rocks, he was in all but two cases less than 60cm away. Unfortunately, all that did was make my NC's that much more accurate. Also, having almost half his fleet made up of Slaughters that he pushed far ahead meant that he came at me in two waves, allowing me to concentrate my fire on the Slaughters until they were dead, then do the same trick to the Murders and Executor that came up behind. He recognized himself and said that his biggest tactical error was getting so focused on closing the distance that he let his fleet get split in two and defeated in detail.

- Nate

[Eudaimon]

hell, two waves are fatal in open space against Nova Cannons, PLUS the fact that Slaughters tend by them selves to leave behind the rest of the fleet, player must pay attention for this if it's not part of a bigger plan...
Ok for make as many AC as you can, but you have to run all together to the NC's ships at all cost, that is the first thing (if in open space)

I recently saw a battle of chaos against IN with 4 NC:
-First IN turn: move on, can't shot because chaos deployed under coverage
-First chaos turn: AAF
-Second IN turn: it's the first and unique turn when all his NC have shot (one chaos ship take a direct hit, 1 shield down)
-Second chaos turn: Lock On and an IN's NC ship is reduced to a hulk (2 damages with the D3 critic)
from now on, only one NC has shot one hit in the whole game.
Result: IN lost three cruisers and the battleship (Apocalypse), the chaos player lost the Desolator thanks to IN's wb (due to a tactical error).
I mean: chaos had to suffer the first turn (AAF) to reach the enemy, and then fire!
IN took advantage of only one NC turn and then payed the loss of having not a frontal weapon for close combat

[flybywire-E2C]

Chaos fleet 2:
1x Styx + 2x Devestation
1x Hades + 3x Murder

We couldn't find anyone to play BFG in the game store today, so this is the second play-test fleet my son and I are playing, based on the fleet you picked out. Here's what he added to make the point total for this play-test:

add:
1 Idolator & 1 Iconoclast
50-point Chaos Warmaster w/1RR
Total: 1490 points

Imperial fleet:
50-point Fleet Admiral w/1RR
Mars
3x Dominator
3x Lunar w/NC (each is only +10 points over a Dominator and I needed to fill points)
Total: 1490 points

Ironically, I had to proxy a third NC lunar with one armed with torps because of all my Lunars (7 of them), only two have NC's.

I'll let you know how it all goes by sometime tomorrow night, complete with a detailed BatRep.

- Nate

[Valhallan]

nate, your at 1515 with that extra RR....

so:
admiral + RR (75)
1 mars w/ matrix
6 dominators

= 1500

...unless of course you want those silly lances...

[Mazila]

What are your gaming tables? I think you guys mostly don't care about NC limitation because, as far as I understand, you are playing mainly on 120x120 tables. Generaly you only have 1 turn of NC shooting and then oppenent goes lock-on

We play mostly on 120x180 tables as it was suggested in Bluebook and NC is much more deadly at this range.

I think the rules should consider as many table variants as possible, also think about missions like exterminatus - an attacker has to pass a very large distance while defender can just stay still within the gravity well and fire as many NC as he likes for at least 3 turns.

[horizon]

120cm x 180cm

Play all the scenarios to determine Nova effectiveness.

[Sigoroth]

What are your gaming tables? I think you guys mostly don't care about NC limitation because, as far as I understand, you are playing mainly on 120x120 tables. Generaly you only have 1 turn of NC shooting and then oppenent goes lock-on

We play mostly on 120x180 tables as it was suggested in Bluebook and NC is much more deadly at this range.

I think the rules should consider as many table variants as possible, also think about missions like exterminatus - an attacker has to pass a very large distance while defender can just stay still within the gravity well and fire as many NC as he likes for at least 3 turns.

Well there's practically no difference between 4' x 4' tables and 4' x 6' tables. This is because even when on 4' x 6' tables you usually deploy on opposite long edges.