Nova Cannon limitations

[flybywire-E2C]

Hi Nate,

the scatter Nova got a (surprise) nerf from FAQ1.5 into rulebook 1.5.  The FAQ had the scatter at 2d6 for the maximum band, 1d6 for the lower. The rulebook added a 3d6 band.

That's the scatter nerf.

Thanks- I forgot about that, but the scatter nerf was intentional. What we found is that at range, 2D6 scatter was still scoring dead-on hits on battleship bases a little less than 1/3 of the time, in addition to the 1/3 of the time dead-on hits were actually rolled. The most common rolls with 2D6 ended up being between 5cm-9cm from the target stem, which isn't a lot of wiggle room considering a BB base is about 5cm across.

- Nate

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

No, the problem is that the rules allowed a veteran player to spam a weapon against an inexperienced opponent. We can't write rules hoping that people will be gentlemen, because for every gentleman out there that wants to play a challenging game, there's a munchkin that tailors his fleet to smash all opposition using any weapon spam allowed.

And much as we would all like to have world peace, it's nigh impossible. Yes, the vet was a jerk for doing that to a noob. But that should not prevent the using of a list which is not broken against another competitive player.

Sigoroth's argument is valid in that while he doesn't want the NC rules to change, its because of a particular ship choice he feels works most synergestically. That is something I can understand- I happen to like Dominators myself for exactly the same reason. However, your primary argument is based solely on how an IN player should be able to take as many NC's as the player wants, and an opponent should just learn to deal with it, which I don't consider to be a solution.

Yes but only because the NC is not a reliable weapon when taken in few numbers. That has been my main argument. Not because the IN player can.

Most of the feedback here tends toward the opposite, and ALL of the feedback I have seen in e-mails, three different player groups in Atlanta and two player groups here in Norfolk is that this change needs to be incoroprated. We simply do NOT have the time to develop a whole new rule-set right now, not to mention that isn't in our mandate at this time, and your insistence that an all-NC fleet is perfectly legal is exactly why a restriction needs to be put in place. Just like you say opponents need to learn how to deal with fighting an all-NC fleet, you can just as easily learn to fight effectively mixing torps into your NC ship units.

There have been many rules developed by certain players and even Ray. I've made one and since it does improve the weapon, I put in limits on how many can be put in play. You can check it out in the Warp Rift issue.

I don't just insist on something. I insist it should be viable because the NC as a weapon has already been nerfed hard and this is why people tend to take them en masse. If we stayed with the Guess rules then you would be hearing me insist on the NC being limited.

And yes, people do need to deal with it instead of crying broken when I haven't seen a list like this win in tournaments. Chaos and Tau can out ordnance it. Chaos can even outspeed it. Eldar are nigh invulnerable to it. SM has a different problem but even they can outspeed and out ordnance it. If Orks play the escort and Terror ship game, they can out ordnance it as well as get under the ranges real quick. Necrons will out speed it. And I'm talking about a regular non-tailored list.

And again, you're implying I do not use a mixed list. I do Nate. Really.

This is not yet set in stone. Depending on how the HA debate goes, maybe this won't hapen, maybe it will be two per 750 points, maybe it will be something else, like 3 per 1000, etc. Until the NC gets fixed so that a massed weapon isn't smashing opponents when they can't even shoot back for several turns, some kind of restriction will probably end up being put in place. This is what is fair for EVERYONE, not just for all the IN players.

- Nate

Really? And what about the IN who's weapon has been nerfed probably once every two years in the last 8? Is that fair to him? If you create a new ruleset that improves the weapon, fine, limit it. I don't believe you cannot even make a ruleset in a span of a few days or even a month if you really wanted to while you are still doing the other projects.

[horizon]

Hi Nate,

the scatter Nova got a (surprise) nerf from FAQ1.5 into rulebook 1.5.  The FAQ had the scatter at 2d6 for the maximum band, 1d6 for the lower. The rulebook added a 3d6 band.

That's the scatter nerf.

Thanks- I forgot about that, but the scatter nerf was intentional. What we found is that at range, 2D6 scatter was still scoring dead-on hits on battleship bases a little less than 1/3 of the time, in addition to the 1/3 of the time dead-on hits were actually rolled. The most common rolls with 2D6 ended up being between 5cm-9cm from the target stem, which isn't a lot of wiggle room considering a BB base is about 5cm across.

- Nate

Hey,
that's an overreaction because with the 2d6 the limitation on NC is warranted, with the 3d6 Much less.

See, hitting a battleship with a Nova Cannon is kinda wasted.

Because we should not forget (and in this thread I have a feeling this is sometimes forgotten.....):

* Shields do protect versus Nova Cannons. So versus most cruisers a roll of 1 & 2 means nothing, even if you rolled a 'HIT'.

* Ships can Brace for Impact versus Nova Cannons (the psychological aspect, brace or not, will it hit or not).

From personal experience:
Firing with Nova Cannon through all battles I used it:
First ever shot: HIT, 6 damage
following five shots, all scattered doing nothing.
Then another HIT, rolling 1 damage (vs shields).
Then another miss
Then another HIT rolling 2 damage (vs shields).

So, quite unimpressive really aside of the first shot it did nothing much for the subsequent 8 shots...


Against me:
Once a Wraithship was death in one shot (holofield rolled a 1 and being an Eldar I was too arrogant to brace). (5 hits, critical damage to kill it).
An Emmissary got crippled (3 hits, failed BFI rolls).
And a host of misses and scatters.

Again, fairly unimpressive.

[Vaaish]

I'm not seeing how increased odds of hitting a large base is cause for the useless 3d6 roll on the NC. If you are shooting at a battleship you are wasting your time with the NC. Massed NC fire, could do some damage but even if you roll a 6 for damage you are only getting 2 hits on the BB and at that range, you probably wont lose much by bracing. I could understand if the problem was with the 2d6 scatter not being enough to reduce the damage against a cruiser, but against a BB you should be happy your opponent is wasting his firepower there rather than on the meat of your fleet.

[RCgothic]

Yup, really against this change. The same number of torps do more damage per round once in range, and there are plenty of other power lists that would obliterate a noob. Why don't more people take all Nova Cannons? Because it's really not that effective overall! Far better to have the tactical flexibility of some torps as well.

[Zelnik]

I do not believe in rules limitations for nova cannons. plain  and simple. Admech can take as many as they like, and they will enjoy all 5 of their ships on the table while my six cruisers and one battleship chaos fleet rips them a very happy new one.

I just don't like playing it because it sucks to watch five to seven nova cannon templates lambast your labor intensive paint job battleship in one round.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

There's millions upon millions of conscripts which you can use to repaint your battleship. 

In any case, my position remains the same. Either upgrade the effectiveness or keep yer hands off the NC under the current ruleset.

[Sigoroth]

@ Nate

While it would be no fun for the poor newbie getting pasted by an all NC fleet, I could paste any newbie with any fleet, fluffy or otherwise. They're newbies. Getting pasted is part of the learning curve. Hell, I cut my teeth against all NC IN fleets and all AC IN fleets. Both back when their rules were broken.

I myself don't find all NC fleets to be overpowered, but if it's considered a "competitive" list, in the sense that it's munchkinish or min/maxing, etc, and this is bad against poor old newbies then are other "competitive" lists going to be similarly nerfed? The all Nightshade Eldar list (with perhaps a token carrier or two) for example. Or the all Hero/Explorer Tau fleet (with Orca/FC fillers). How about the trip Daunt + Emp 750 pt IN fleet? I'm sure all these are comptetitive fleet lists that would likely destroy any newbie.

The point here being solely that encouraging newcomers to the game is something that veterans should take on board, and if they decide to be ultra competitive ... well, there's no stopping people being dicks.

One last thing on the topic of fluff. I often hear that "fluff shouldn't dictate rules" or some such. I completely disagree with this sentiment. According to the fluff we have a net stalemate occuring. No side can gain the upper hand to defeat the others. Therefore anything in the fluff can be balanced to represent this. In fact, this is what we have points for. It's not as though we're given a certain amount of raw resources, crew and shipyards and told to build as best you can and go out and conquer the galaxy. We're given points that are supposed to balance things. For example, I've always been of the opinion that a single Eldar ship should soundly defeat any IN/Chaos ship of equal displacement.

This would make the game terribly unbalanced if Eldar always won. So we have points, meaning that the Eldar are outnumbered (or at least out-displaced). Therefore balanced. If we gave 3 activated blackstone fortresses a super-shooty-mega-death-shot then ... so what? That's 2250 pts of boarding bait. Big deal.

In short, since the fluff has an established stalemate we can safely follow it at all times. Only if the fluff came up with a clear winner would we have to shy away in order to maintain a balanced game.

[commander]

I know I'am going to disregard any NC limitation. Unless the NC becomes a more accurate weaponsystem.

[RCgothic]

@ Nate
While it would be no fun for the poor newbie getting pasted by an all NC fleet, I could paste any newbie with any fleet, fluffy or otherwise. They're newbies. Getting pasted is part of the learning curve. Hell, I cut my teeth against all NC IN fleets and all AC IN fleets. Both back when their rules were broken.

Quoted for Truth. Nothing is going to stop a veteran destroying a noob if that's what he sets out to do.

The all nova list isn't even a particularly bad offender. If it were, it would be winning and prevalent at tournaments. Is it? No.

[russ_c]

I'm personally in-favor of no limitations.  I've never played against 6 NCs in 1500 points, but I've played a number of games against 4 in 1500 and 1250 points on a 180x120cm table (I suppose this is inline with the 2 per 750pts).  It simply forced me to chose AAF over other SOs to close fast, denying my Chaos fleet it's long range lance advantage.  But once in so close, the IN fleet always suffers without Torps.  My local IN player just gave up on the strategy when I adjusted my fleet tactics accordingly.

With terrain and thoughtful setup, how was the IN player able to even get so many shots off each turn during the game you watched?  I'm also curious why it took 3 turns for the opponent to close.

Russ

[flybywire-E2C]

I know I'am going to disregard any NC limitation. Unless the NC becomes a more accurate weaponsystem.

Hi Commander! Now this here is the most common-sense thing I have heard this entire debate. It's the HA's job to try and keep this thing balanced when crafting official rules. Its the players' job to tell us to sod off and play however you and your opponent think is FUN!! 

- Nate

[commander]

Well, at long range only an escort has to fear 1 NC if it hits. Other ships can or practically ignore it (battleships) or be a bit weary (cruisers). Limiting the number of NC would make it practically useless.
IF it would be more accurate and devastating, limits would be OK.

[lastspartacus]

I had a vision during nightshift, of the nova without range limitation, and then using the gunnery chart, and then both.  Maybe it will resurface.

I think a 190-195 point Tyrant with str6 batts at 45cm would go a long way in solving any Dominator problem

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I had a vision during nightshift, of the nova without range limitation, and then using the gunnery chart, and then both.  Maybe it will resurface.

I think a 190-195 point Tyrant with str6 batts at 45cm would go a long way in solving any Dominator problem

Why? I'd rather keep the Dominator's FP12@30cm batteries to any FP6@45cm batteries.