August 05, 2024, 07:18:39 PM

Author Topic: Nova Cannon limitations  (Read 80625 times)

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2010, 06:54:51 PM »
Nova as a weapon is perfect as is.  Its still hitting 1/3 of the time at a range nothing else can come close to reaching.

As to the Dominator, I have always felt it should be a 200 point ship, considering how pricey nova upgrades are deemed worthy to other ships.
I think the Tyrant should be a 190 point ship with str6 rather than str4 45cm batteries.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2010, 08:13:57 PM »
You pay more on other ships because it's an option, and you always pay more for options. If you were to make the Dominator 200pts, I'd insist on a 180pt version with torps.

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2010, 08:40:03 PM »
No, no NC limitations. Unless, as proposed, the IN gets a torp version of the Dominator. Otherwise this rule makes the best gunship (not even counting its NC) almost unavailable to the IN.

If we are talking about the Dominator getting a torp option, how is the Dominator at 190 points any better than a Tyrant at 185? Okay so the Dominator has +2WB's a side, the Tyrant comes with better range that is paltry but gets MUCH better for just a few extra points.

For the cost, I'd give up an escort to trade three Dominators for three Tyrants with the gun upgrade any day of the week, but that's just me. It costs two more Cobras to give them all NC's, but I like to mix and match torps and NC's and am more often NC-light than NC-heavy. Again, that's just me.

I have over 4,000 points of fully painted Imperial ships (with twice that in the yards with nothing but a blue basecoat and gray drybrush), and my entire fleet of fully painted ships has only 7 Nova Cannon. I even know what they are: 1 Dominator, 2 Tyrants, 2 Mars, 1 Lunar and 1 Victory BB. Granted I have about 6 more in the fleet still waiting to be fully commissioned, but there's about 5,000 points in that pile.

Yes, I know. Don't judge me! It's a sickness...

- Nate
Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2010, 09:17:49 PM »
I have seen nova cannons scatter and hit wacky stuff.  Like the time it scattered off by braced scythe and into my tomb ship :(


I believe that 3 max for up to 1500, and that's a stretch.  If someone walks in with a nova cannon fleet of doom, I usually want to leap over the table and punch him in the nuts... it's only fair because that's what he is trying to do to my fleet.

The answer is simple, you see more then 3 nova's in a 1500 fleet.. don't play him.  OR play eldar and make another eldar hater out of him.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2010, 09:41:15 PM »
Neutering the NC again eh? No, not unless you boost it to make it better. You have to realize other than the fact that the reason why the NC fleet is taken a lot is not just because you can, its because at the moment, the NC sucks already as a weapon system with so many rules intended to limit its effectivity. People now have a justification for bringing it since it is not a reliable weapon. Bump up the reliability and I would welcome any limitation in exchange.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 10:04:47 PM by Admiral_d_Artagnan »

Offline horizon

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2010, 09:59:39 PM »
Zelnik, what about AdMech?

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2010, 11:36:35 PM »
My main problem has always been the Dominator being a much better ship than the Tyrant for 5 more points, but I think everyone knows that argument already.

Offline Caine-HoA

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2010, 12:06:04 AM »
The Problem is only that some lucky Nova shots can decide a game, thats what ppl fear.

BUT most often novas dont d a lot of dmg. After all ist all Imps have for long range battle and they have to take less torpedoes so reducing one of their strengh.

I dont think Novas should be limited you always can make your house rules in a gaming group if you dont like them.

As pointed out only in big battles i think novas are overpowered because if like 6 or 7 noves fire at two ships there wont be standing much after the shots, and in big battles you cant hide all of your fleet behind asteroinds so there are always targets for them. Thats their main strengh in my opinion.
Ive seen that happen in a 11000 total points game with mixed fleets (chaos tau and ork, i know its a strange combination but there were too many imp and sm players, VS imp and sms). The novas plus 60cmlances simply crushed the chaos cruisers before they could do much.
We didnt finish the game but the losses were big on chaos side when the fleets engaged close range.

Offline commander

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2010, 08:24:00 AM »
Lucky is the keyword here.  ;)

Offline Eudaimon

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2010, 10:06:01 AM »
I'm not a NC fun (and I'm an IN player) but limiting the NC means that Mars, Dominator and the Apocalypse are restricted too, so in my personal opinion that wouldn't be a good thing, as seen that the IN fleet is the fleet of the choice. Maybe it would be well if you make a torpedo variant of those ships, but I don't understand this need of limiting the NC.
I always thought that its limit was the scatter and the short range blackout, I mean that after a certain point of the battle it become almost useless.

I have never seen a scattering shot that has hit a ship that wasn't the primary target, even against all NC fleets (only the 1 hit of the area a couple of time, pretty useless).

I recognize that used against fleet that are usually less outnumber (Necron, AdMech) it is more effective.

Offline Mazila

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2010, 10:19:35 AM »
We use 1 NC limit per 750 pts. This is done because in 1000 games 2 NC are a little bit brutal. They will put one of your ships on brace straight away at least and cripple it at moste, granting an immediate win.

1 NC is more of a tactical weapon than a damage-dealing one - it makes an opponent nervous and forces him to manuver or brace.

2 NC for 1500 is enough for same reasons as above but a crippled ship on 1 turn in 1500 battle is not such a big problem

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2010, 10:21:52 AM »
@Nate

Ugh, the Tyrant is a lemon.

Offline fracas

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2010, 11:23:09 AM »
Another vote against limiting nova cannons as already stated it will limit ships. Maybe limit the nova cannon upgrade option?

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2010, 11:58:39 AM »
I'm not a NC fun (and I'm an IN player) but limiting the NC means that Mars, Dominator and the Apocalypse are restricted too, so in my personal opinion that wouldn't be a good thing, as seen that the IN fleet is the fleet of the choice. Maybe it would be well if you make a torpedo variant of those ships, but I don't understand this need of limiting the NC.
I always thought that its limit was the scatter and the short range blackout, I mean that after a certain point of the battle it become almost useless.

I have never seen a scattering shot that has hit a ship that wasn't the primary target, even against all NC fleets (only the 1 hit of the area a couple of time, pretty useless).

I recognize that used against fleet that are usually less outnumber (Necron, AdMech) it is more effective.

Okay, now lets review. Say NC's are limited to 2 per 750 points. Because a Mars is already 270 points AND you need 2 cruisers just to have a Mars (say 2 Dauntless for maximum munchkin), you need at an absolute minimum 490 points per Mars. Thus, the Mars is just fine, since you need 980 points to have two of them even if you min-max your fleet, keeping in mind that if you are a min-max munchkin, you deserve what you get. The only limitation imposed here is if you wanted to go full-bore munchkin and get your Mars with two Dominators, which you would no longer be allowed to do: Mars + Dominator = 460 points. In order to get another NC ship, you need at least one more cruiser, say a Lunar, which I might add is supposed to be the most plentiful cruiser in the Imperial Navy. Now for 750 points you have three cruisers, two of which have NC's. Or, we can even min-max again and buy two Dauntless to go with our Mars/Dominator pair, giving us four capital ships with two NC's for less than 750 points. Not too shabby! The Apocalypse is a battleship so this gets even easier- it soaks up nearly half the 750-point limit all by itself.

The ONLY ship that would actually be restricted by this rule would be the Dominator, which you could now no longer take more than two of per 750 points. Don't get me wrong, I like the thing and have a few, which I make distinct from my Tyrants by using different prows and bridges (they're supposed to be from Kar Durniash anyway). If Dominators are so vitally important to your fleet that you absolutely MUST have more than two of these per 750 points, you need to develop better tactics, not to mention you have some very forgiving (or naive) opponents.

The only problem a 2 for 750-point limit brings up will be for those who want to go all-NC, which is essentially what you would be doing if you try and cram 3 NC's into a 750 point fleet. That is pure munchkinism and totally against fluff- this weapon system is supposed to be rare. I don't care how much you play BFG; if your strategy as an IN player is to field as many NC's as you can cram into a fleet, you need to develop better tactics.

Don't get me wrong, there are tactics that seasoned players can use to defeat an all-NC munchkin, and I have done it on a number of occassions because I like the challenge and find skewered fleets useful for play-testing. However, BFG is intended for everyone, and the game I saw in Atlanta was ridiculous. One player was being introduced to the game for only the second time, and he was REALLY put of to see his fleet mashed to pulp before he even closed to shoot back. New players should not need to have explained to them, "Don't worry about losing your entire fleet for no damage on my side, you just need to develop better tactics against this kind of weapon."

One more reason they should be limited to 2 per 750 points is a more subtle one. The Adeptus Mechanicus don't have battlecruisers per se, and they can use NC's on every cruiser type in their inventory except CL's. However, as a rule their ships are considerably more expensive than equivalent IN types. This means that in a min-max matchup with the IN pushing all Dominators, the IN would actually end up with more NC's than the AM fleet for a given point value, a preposterous assertion. Now the IN will still have more ships because they are cheaper, but at least NC's will be at parity.

- Nate
Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline Mazila

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Re: Nova Cannon limitations
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2010, 12:12:25 PM »
AM don't use battlecruisers because their normal cruisers fulfill that role with +1 turret and dorsal lance
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 12:58:05 PM by Mazila »