Nova Cannon limitations

[Mazila]

Well there's practically no difference between 4' x 4' tables and 4' x 6' tables. This is because even when on 4' x 6' tables you usually deploy on opposite long edges

You said it yourself: sometimes yes, sometimes no. The part with somtimes no is the one i am worried about ))

[horizon]

What

You said it yourself: sometimes yes, sometimes no. The part with somtimes no is the one i am worried about ))

What?

[russ_c]

What are your gaming tables? I think you guys mostly don't care about NC limitation because, as far as I understand, you are playing mainly on 120x120 tables. Generaly you only have 1 turn of NC shooting and then oppenent goes lock-on

We play mostly on 120x180 tables as it was suggested in Bluebook and NC is much more deadly at this range.

I think the rules should consider as many table variants as possible, also think about missions like exterminatus - an attacker has to pass a very large distance while defender can just stay still within the gravity well and fire as many NC as he likes for at least 3 turns.

I play on a 120x180 and don't care about the limitation.  But, I've never gone up against 7 NCs in 1500, just 4.

Russ

[flybywire-E2C]

Hi all! We finally got another all-Nova Cannon fleet play-test battle done! Here's the results of play test #2, complete with battle report. For the record, the table this was played on is 140cmx140cm. It’s an odd size, but that’s what I have. The scenario was Cruiser Clash, set-up exactly as described in the rulebook.  Celestial Phenomena was for Primary Biosphere as follows:


      <-  Chaos Edge
                          1   2   3
Sun edge
                          4   5   6
      Imperial Edge ->

2: small planet
3: asteroid field
5: three gas clouds
6: moon

Imperial Fleet:
Imperious (Mars), Ld8, Fleet Admiral w/re-roll
Minotaur (Lunar/NC) Ld8, Squad 1
Cardinal Demos (Dominator) Ld9, Squad 1
Cardinal Haynes (Dominator) Ld6, Squad 1
Caridad Divina (Lunar/NC) Ld7, Squad 2
Tyrant Adamantine (Dominator) Ld9, Squad 2
Rogue Argenis Vigor (Dominator) Ld8, Squad 2
Total: 1480 points

Chaos Fleet:
Soul Thief (Styx), Ld8, Chaos Lord w/re-roll
Dangerous Wind (Devastation), Ld7, Squad 1
Deathbane (Devastation), Ld9, Squad 1
Revolution (Murder), Ld7, Squad 2
Internecivus (Murder), Ld8, Squad 2
Queen’s Consort (Murder/lance variant), Ld7, Squad 3
Malignus Maximus (Hades), Ld9, Squad 3
Destructors (2x Infidel), Ld7
Total: 1485 points

Chaos wins roll to elect set up and also goes first

TURN ONE
Chaos uses small planet to turn entire fleet 90 degrees, and the three escorts move full distance to force Imperials to do leadership checks to ignore them. Squads 2 & 3 move as far forward as possible to close the distance. Squad 1 and Styx hide behind the moon and launch ordnance waves.

Imperial fleet turns in tight formation to go line-abreast. All ships pass Ld check to ignore closest targets. Squad 1 targets Malignus Maximus with three Nova Cannon, which braces. NC#1 misses but drifts into Styx attack craft wave, taking out two markers. NC#2 gets dead-on hit but only drops both shields, NC#3 misses completely. Squad 2 targets Revolution with three Nova Cannon, which braces. NC#1 misses but drifts into entire attack craft wave, destroying it. NC#2 misses but drifts between Malignus Maximus (scoring 1HP) and Internecivus (dropping 1 shield). NC#3 misses but drifts into Queen’s Consort, dropping 1 shield. Imperious NC targets Malignus Maximus but misses completely. Imperious launches 4 fighters, which push forward to meet remaining Chaos attack craft waves.

TURN TWO

Styx and Devastations go All Ahead Full to catch up with Chaos fleet, using moon to steer behind and abeam Chaos gun line, but they gent unexpectedly high AAF rolls and end up virtually beside the rest of the Chaos fleet and clustered too close to it. Chaos gun line staggers into echelon formation so drifting Nova Cannon shots are only effective in a single direction, but as a consequence they risk having the Imperials cross the T when the fleets meet. Gun line prow lances only reach Imperial fighters, but multiple shots only take out one marker. Infidels launch torpedoes to harass fleet even though out of effective range; Imp fighters know fleet is prow-on and maneuver to ignore them. 

Mars reloads ordnance, Imperial fleet pushes forward line-abreast 10cm, all ships pass Ld checks to ignore closest target. Squad 1 fires three Nova Cannon at Queen’s Consort, which braces. NC#1 gets dead-on hit rolling 4, dropping shields with 1 un-braced hit causing Fire critical. NC#2 misses but drifts into Soul Thief rolling 5, dropping shields and causing 3HP including Bulkhead Collapse critical +2HP to cripple ship! NC#3 misses completely. Squad 2 fires three Nova Cannon at Dangerous Wind, which fails to brace. NC#1 misses but drifts into Malignus Maximus rolling 5. It was already braced (squad with Queen’s Consort), it drops shields and braces one hit to take 2HP and Thrusters critical +1HP. NC#2 misses completely. NC#3 misses completely. Imperious fires NC at Soul Thief, which misses but drifts into Revolution, dropping both shields. Imperious dorsal lances score two hits on Revolution, including Fire critical. Both Infidel torpedo salvoes reach Argenis Vigor, causing 1HP damage. Chaos ordnance waves continue to move forward. In end phase, Revolution puts out Fire, and Malignus Maximus repairs Thrusters with 1D6!

TURN THREE

Devastations fail Reload Ordnance special order. Chaos fleet continues moving forward as a group to try and close distance, with Infidels remaining in front. Escorts shoot first, missing Minotaur. Chaos strategy is to cripple it before shifting fire to another target. Imperial strategy is to stick it out and avoid losing three Nova Cannon to a BFI special order. Squad 2 shoots at Minotaur, which refuses to brace and ends up only losing one shield (along with Cardinal Haynes in base contact). Squad 3 shoots at Minotaur, dropping second shield and causing 1HP (Cardinal Haynes gets second BM as well). Soul Thief shoots at Minotaur for 1HP, it still won’t brace. Squad 3 fires long-range lances at Minotaur, and it takes only one more HP. Because bomber waves still can’t reach Imperial line but can get right in front of it, they position themselves so that the only damaged Imperial ships can’t maneuver without catching both waves. Fighters pull out of wave to chop down massed CAP, reducing total effectiveness for chance at one good bomb run. Remaining Imperial attack separate waves to bring down strength of any one wave.

Adamantine moves first to take both bomber waves, it ends up taking no damage! The rest of Imperial fleet moves forward in a shallow wedge, with intent of putting damaged ships to rear, but Minotaur ends up on leading edge because it is the only way to get it in range of desired targets. Fleet moves to put Infidels 29cm away so that even a failed leadership check allows them to ignore escorts. The tactic works- Squad 1 fails to ignore closest targets and fires three Nova Cannon on Internecivus, which braces. NC#1 drifts but drops a shield. NC#2 gets dead-on hit rolling 2, causing 1HP. NC#3 drifts so that very edge touches base to cause 1HP but hole gets dead-on hit rolling 6 on Queen’s Consort, causing 4HP along with Fire and Engine Room (+1HP) criticals. Squad 2 passes Ld check to ignore closer and fires three Nova Cannon on Soul Thief, which braces. NC#1 gets dead-on hit rolling 5. All brace rolls fail and Soul Thief dies a blazing hulk! NC#2 shifts to Deathbane, which refuses to brace and gets dead-on hit rolling 3, dropping shields and taking 1HP. NC#3 misses completely. Imperious Nova Cannon fires on Internecivus, getting dead-on hit rolling 3 to cripple ship, which braces 1 to take 2HP and cause Prow critical. Imperious lances score one more HP on Internecivus (fails brace roll again). Imperious launches 4 fighters which take up CAP. Chaos repairs all critical damage again!   

TURN FOUR

AGAIN Devastations fail Reload Ordnance special order, and with Styx dead their re-roll is lost. Infidels move full distance to get behind Imperial fleet and turn abeam to target Minotaur at point-blank. Soul Thief blazing hulk only moves a short distance, then goes catastrophic with an 18cm blast radius, catching entire Chaos fleet except escorts! Queen’s Consort and Dangerous Wind both take 1HP, the rest of the fleet emerges unscathed but are awash in blast markers. Chaos fleet moves to catch half of the Imperial line with their broadsides and the other half with their prows. Entire fleet concentrates prow fire on Minotaur, which refuses to brace. Broadsides concentrate on Adamantine, which also refuses to brace. Minotaur dies a drifting hulk, and remaining fire shifts to Cardinal Demos, which takes 2HP damage. Adamantine loses shields but takes no damage.

Squad 1 attempts to Lock-On but fails special order AND re-roll! With both fleets in knife-fight range now, Imperial fleet maneuvers to get broadsides on part of fleet and Nova Cannon at minimum range on stragglers. Unfortunately, Minotaur hulk forces imperial fleet nearly on top of each other to make it happen, and fleet is in difficult maneuver position if unable to close the game in this turn. Squad 2 targets Deathbane with three Nova Cannon, which braces. NC#1 gets dead-on hit but only rolls 1 to drop a shield. NC#2 gets dead-on hit rolling 4 for 3HP (al brace rolls fail) as well as Shields Collapsed and Bridge Smashed criticals! NC#3 scores dead-on hit rolling 6! Three brace rolls fail, and the ship takes 3HP and a Fire critical. Squad 1 targets Dangerous Wind with two Nova Cannon. NC#1 only drops a shield. NC#2 drifts only 2cm, rolling 4 for 2HP (two brace rolls fail). Imperious fires on Dangerous Wind, getting dead-on hit rolling 6. Three brace rolls fail, taking 3HP to die a drifting hulk! Squad 2 fires broadsides on Revolution scoring 6 hits, with three brace rolls failing for 3HP, crippling it. Squad 1 fires broadsides on Internecivus for 4 hits, with two brace rolls failing for 2HP and an Engine critical (+1HP), dying a drifting hulk. Internecivus and Minotaur hulks block Imperious batteries, but dorsal lances score 1HP on Revolution (fails to brace). Deathbane takes 1HP damage from not repairing Fire.

At this point we stopped the game. Here was the tally at this point:

Imperial Fleet:
Imperious (Mars), Ld8, Fleet Admiral w/re-roll            UNDAMAGED
Minotaur (Lunar/NC) Ld8, Squad 1                    DESTROYED
Cardinal Demos (Dominator) Ld9, Squad 1              UNDAMAGED
Cardinal Haynes (Dominator) Ld6, Squad 1              2HP Damage
Caridad Divina (Lunar/NC) Ld7, Squad 2              UNDAMAGED
Tyrant Adamantine (Dominator) Ld9, Squad 2          UNDAMAGED
Rogue Argenis Vigor (Dominator) Ld8, Squad 2          1HP Damage
Total: 1480 points

Chaos Fleet:
Soul Thief (Styx), Ld8, Chaos Lord w/re-roll          DESTROYED
Dangerous Wind (Devastation), Ld7, Squad 1              DESTROYED
Deathbane (Devastation), Ld9, Squad 1                7HP Damage/FIRE
Revolution (Murder), Ld7, Squad 2                      6HP Damage
Internecivus (Murder), Ld8, Squad 2                    DESTROYED
Queen’s Consort (Murder/lance variant), Ld7, Squad 3        6HP Damage
Malignus Maximus (Hades), Ld9, Squad 3                  6HP Damage
Destructors (2x Infidel), Ld7                          UNDAMAGED
Total: 1485 points

Keep in mind that the scenario played was Cruiser Clash, where the fleets can’t start any farther than 90cm apart (60cm plus any slant range induced by set-up). This does NOT take into account scenarios like Planetary Assault that entail much longer treks across the table, nor does this account for how a 140cm x 14cm table is a bit on the small side as far as gaming tables go.





 

[horizon]

I do not get this at all. This whole battlereport.

1) Scattering Nova's on ordnace waves: why does this never happen with or against me. I mean.... your scatters are good. Do you have a legit dice.
Your other scatters were also spot on.

2) cruiser clash = ships pointing at eachother.  Why did Chaos not move forward with Hades/Murder/Murder/Murder in turn 1 to get into 60cm (should be easy enough), have lock on and fire 10 lances into the IN fleet?

Note: when in a squadron you can only target at the closest ship. So I believe you cannot aim the Nova Cannon at a ship in a squadron not being closest. So was the Soul Thief closest target in squadron or not?

Conclusion from what I get: Chaos did not apply correct tactics. Your scatters where many times spot on. Chaos keeps it ships to close together.

[horizon]

To add:
table 120cm width. Minimum distance 60cm between fleets.

Chaos should deploy on edge: Furthest away IN could do is table edge.
Distance will be 90cm.

Chaos on normal movement would end up at 65cm. Asume no all ahead full which would bring Chaos certainly within 60cm and makes lances of Murders-Hades-Styx in effect.
IN moves forward 10cm, shoots Nova Cannons. & Mars lances. With or without turning.
distance 55cm.

Chaos moves normal speed, locked on or not. Depends,
25cm speed: Range = 30cm. All guns.

Under 30cm : IN cannot fire NC.

So against me you would have had a maximum of 2 rounds of NC fire. At max!

[flybywire-E2C]

Lessons Learned:

This is the second battle in a row where an all-NC Imperial fleet mauled a Chaos fleet in short order. Taken in sum, I believe the Chaos tactics were as effective as they could have been under the circumstances. Murders and Hades when used together bring a lot of prow-on firepower at long range when closing as quickly as they can against an NC-heavy Imperial fleet, and the Devastations and Styx maneuvered to their strengths, maneuvering to flank the Imperial fleet around the Murder/Hades gun-line. The Imperial strategy is simple: pick a ship and nail on it until it either braces or is crippled, then move to the next one.

I have heard several arguments AGAINST placing a numerical restriction on Nova Cannons. While some arguments have been more eloquent than others, the best argument I have heard so far goes something like this: Nova Cannon were relatively new and rare to Segmentum Obscuras in the beginning of M41, but by the end of the Gothic War, a number of ships across various classes were already re-fitted with this weapon. Fast-forward the better part of a thousand years to the 13th Black Crusade, and its a safe bet taht the number of Nova Cannons in the fleet is significantly larger, enough so that while an all-NC fleet is not likely, it certainly isn't implausible. This doesn't take into account that Ultima Segmentum fleets will have proportionately more, as the Nova Cannon design originated at Kar Durniash, and they have been equipping their vessels with this weapon for a corespondingly longer period of time.

So what is our solution set? The easy fix is to limit this weapon, with one per 750 points proving to be about the best mix. However, if we want to remain fluff true and don’t mind giving players all-Nova Cannon fleets (tactically unsound in my mind, but I don’t speak for the entire community), this weapon needs to be adjusted.  Here’s what I’m thinking:

1.   Two Nova Cannon per 750 points and screw the fluff.
2.   Unlimited Nova Cannon, but reduce the to-hit roll to D3 vice D6, increase accuracy >60cm to 2D6cm vice 3D6cm
3.   Unlimited Nova Cannon, leave the to-hit roll as-is but make the Nova Cannon shot hit count when the hole touches the stem instead of merely the base.

Incidentally, #3 was my son’s idea. He by the way is the Chaos nut that watch all-NC fleets shred his ships to ribbons two test battles in a row, and he is one of the best Chaos players I know (Ray Bell can attest to his ability). He agrees with the argument that no weapon system (including Nova Cannon) should be ship-limited and that the rules for it should be fixed instead. He also observed that option #3 places battleships and cruisers in the same category instead of making ships with large bases NC-sponges.

Thoughts?

-   Nate
   

[horizon]

Thoughts?
Given in posts above.

I am not downplaying your sons skills but from what I read he did not apply the right tactics.
In the second post I give the setup example.

And from the first post I have an unanswered question (Soul Thief).

Also: your scatters were insane.

[Vaaish]

Totally against the options you presented for changing the NC. This was discussed not long ago and at some length with Ray in this thread:
http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/forum/index.php?topic=845.0

most of these ideas I believe were covered there.

To summarize though:
Option 1: encourages more NC to make up for pathetic damage and makes it worthless psychologically since the most you will ever have happen is one hull hit. Also makes it worthless against BB.
Option 2: greatly decreases the already low odds of anything outside of 1bm on a scatter which makes the scatter somewhat useless.

Reading through the report, seriously, that is an insane amount of scattering onto targets. I've never had it scatter onto anything when it misses except one of my own ships once.

[Sigoroth]

This latest batt-rep is enough to convince me that no NC limit is needed.

[horizon]

This latest batt-rep is enough to convince me that no NC limit is needed.

haha, lol

Quoted for truth.

[silashand]

This latest batt-rep is enough to convince me that no NC limit is needed.

haha, lol

Quoted for truth.

+2

Cheers, Gary

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Tactics for that kind of Chaos fleet:

1. Chaos gunships first turn goes AAF to close with IN fleet.
2. Chaos carriers launch bombers. Lots of them.
3. Chaos shouldn't brace. If a hit is rolled, a hit is rolled.
4. Turn 2, Chaos LOs and starts shooting the lights out of the NCs.
5. Bombers should now be attacking the IN ships. Chaos carriers RO and shoot their lances at damaged IN ships.
6. Chaos ships should not brace again.
7. Turn 3. Chaos ships LO, move minimal speed and start using their broadsides against the IN fleet. Most likely crippling or destroying a lot of the IN ships.

That's what you should be doing Nate.

[Plaxor]

Tactics for that kind of Chaos fleet:

1. Chaos gunships first turn goes AAF to close with IN fleet.
2. Chaos carriers launch bombers. Lots of them.
3. Chaos shouldn't brace. If a hit is rolled, a hit is rolled.
4. Turn 2, Chaos LOs and starts shooting the lights out of the NCs.
5. Bombers should now be attacking the IN ships. Chaos carriers RO and shoot their lances at damaged IN ships.
6. Chaos ships should not brace again.
7. Turn 3. Chaos ships LO, move minimal speed and start using their broadsides against the IN fleet. Most likely crippling or destroying a lot of the IN ships.

That's what you should be doing Nate.

Agreed, the way of dying against NCs is being scared of them and putting your tail between your legs. Remember, NCs are just as afraid of you as you are of them, (just like rattlesnakes, except longer ranged?) so the strategy is to have balls and 'murder' them

[RCgothic]

The Carriers can also go AAF first turn. They are already loaded and AAF does not reduce ordnance.

At a starting distance of 90cm, the IN should be struggling to get more than one shot off.


Turn one, Chaos AAFs an average 39cm, Imperials move forward 10, 90cm is now 41cm.
Imperials now have only 11cm to play with if they deployed the maximum distance away from the chaos fleet, and if Chaos goes first they aren't getting that second shot anyway. I honestly can't blieve in your battle report the Nova Cannons were still firing in turn four.

In addition, Chaos seemed to have luck that significantly deviated from expected, with Nova Cannons having good results even on scatter, ordnance waves being hit by NCs, Carriers failing to reload, and AC doing no damage against their target.