Nova Cannon limitations

[silashand]

Again, we're trying to prove that the NC does not need any more neutering by showing that a non-tailored list can beat an NC list. We already know the NC IS balanced (though I myself feel it has been hammered more than norm).

And what I was trying to show is that Nate's example proves nothing. If you actually want to prove your hypothesis then you need to follow a structured process to do so.

The problem at the moment is Nate's almost unbelievable good fortune in rolling hits or wonderful scatters rolls which is showing NC list overwhelming the non-tailored list which would then prove his point that the NC does need limitations.

His batrep shows nothing actually since the scenario was unequal.

Now while I don't have the time to study Systems Engineering 101, I think my english and understanding of logic here doesn't require me to take the subject you mentioned. Maybe you just need to go back to English 101. Not to be rude or anything, of course.

Perhaps, though I do actually have a minor in English thank you . If I was unclear you have my apologies. Which reminds me, I did actually make a mistake in my statement. The correct discipline to use would be Research Methods and Statistics, not Systems Engineering and Design. Sorry, got confused for a moment. However, the point stands. The only example provided to date that provides all the necessary information does not stand up to critical analysis and as such cannot be used to determine for or against changing the NC. That's what I was trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to convey.

As I noted in my previous post though, if any fleet composition by the opposing force (including the balanced one) can manage to defeat the NC fleet on a regular basis and assumptions B, C and D are not an issue, then yes, it would prove that assumption A is false. However, that wasn't the result of Nate's batrep and there have been no others provided as comparison.

Cheers, Gary

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

And what I was trying to show is that Nate's example proves nothing. If you actually want to prove your hypothesis then you need o follow a structured process to do so.

You're structured process mostly works if you're starting out from scratch. The thing is, BFG exists already. The weapon exists. Nate of the HA is now proposing to limit the NC for the sake of balance. If you had replied that to Nate, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. However, you replied to Horizon, thereby contradicting what he says and siding with Nate.

His batrep shows nothing actually since the scenario was unequal.

It was supposed to be unequal. The true test of whether something is balanced or not is if an ordinary non-tailored fleet can take it out, without having to min-max its own bells and whistles. The Chaos fleet mentioned is an all around fleet. It has lances, WBs and AC in as proportioned measure as one can take. It uses a ship class, the Murder, which is not favored by a lot. Now if that fleet can beat the NC spamming fleet, then it goes a way to prove our point that the NC should not be limited.

One can use a tailored fleet against an NC but what does that show? That a fleet designed to handle the NC fleet should successfully handle it if not overwhelmingly. As it should. If the NC beats it, then there's a problem and something needs to be fixed.

Perhaps, though I do actually have a minor in English thank you ;-). If I was unclear you have my apologies. However, the point stands. The only example provided to date that provides all the necessary information does not stand up to critical analysis and as such cannot be used to determine for or against changing the NC. That's what I was trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to convey.

Cheers, Gary

Of course it doesn't but not in the context you are presenting. The problem at the moment is Nate getting those incredible rolls. The parameters of the test are correct for what the objective is here.

[silashand]

You're structured process mostly works if you're starting out from scratch. The thing is, BFG exists already. The weapon exists. Nate of the HA is now proposing to limit the NC for the sake of balance. If you had replied that to Nate, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. However, you replied to Horizon, thereby contradicting what he says and siding with Nate.

Hmmm... I was contradicting an incorrect statement, not siding with any one party. Though I happen to fall into the NC needs no nerfing camp personally, if you want to prove that point you cannot support methods that are inappropriate. All research begins with an assumption or hypothesis. Nate's is that the NC is overpowered. The only real way to determine that is through proper analysis. For that purpose RM&S works equally well on existing systems as it does on new ones.

It was supposed to be unequal. The true test of whether something is balanced or not is if an ordinary non-tailored fleet can take it out, without having to min-max its own bells and whistles.

While the end result is potentially supportive, it is a false assumption to believe that an unequal conflict can be use effectively used to evaluate a scenario. If a fleet is provided options as a counter then that is one method of balancing the system. Individual elements need not be equivalent. In this scenario if the balanced fleet were to win regularly vs the NC fleet it would be more an indication that either a) the NC was potentially underpowered or b) the opposing fleet might possibly be overpowered in some other way. In that regard I would like to see the results of a NC fleet vs a min-maxed opponent anyway since if a balanced fleet could beat it, then what possibly could an optimized one do? While it would indeed prove that NC are not *overpowered*, that would be incidental to the other two possible reasons for the result. This assumes that Nova Cannons are accepted to be more effective than other weapon types in the game. If you eliminate this assumption then you eliminate the reason for the hypothesis in the first place.

The Chaos fleet mentioned is an all around fleet. It has lances, WBs and AC in as proportioned measure as one can take. It uses a ship class, the Murder, which is not favored by a lot. Now if that fleet can beat the NC spamming fleet, then it goes a way to prove our point that the NC should not be limited.

That is correct, but as I said it would potentially indicate other problems in the two lists. However, since the purpose of this thread is to disprove Nate's assumption (since he's the one who provided the relevant data to analyze) if *any* fleet can reliably defeat the NC fleet (given that all other assumptions I presented remain true) then that will prove false Nate's assumption that NCs are overpowered. Note that this has to include *ALL* fleets, not just Chaos or Imperials. Some fleets will by design be better than others vs certain opponents. Eldar for instance can pretty much ignore NC since their holofields will allow them to approach with near impunity. Necrons are simply fast enough to get out of arc if they wish. Tau railguns will do a number on a NC fleet. Bugs will in general just swarm in as normal. So to say NC are overpowered means that they would have to be so against a majority of *all* fleets, not just one or two.

One can use a tailored fleet against an NC but what does that show?

It shows that the fleet as a whole has options to deal with Nova Cannons. As I also noted about games design, all options need not be equal. They just have to have a counter. In BFG that counter can be things like point cost, alternate weapon systems or defenses, movement rate differences, etc. The list goes on.

That a fleet designed to handle the NC fleet should successfully handle it if not overwhelmingly. As it should. If the NC beats it, then there's a problem and something needs to be fixed.

Your second statement is correct. Your first is not. A fleet designed to counter a NC fleet should not always defeat it overwhelmingly. If the game is reasonably balanced the results should be relatively equal since both fleets are playing to a strength of their own. If the anti-NC fleet wins more often than it should then something else is amiss since the opposing force would appear to be the overpowered one and/or the NC be proven to be underpowered. Either that or the range of balance in the game is such that extreme builds result in rock-paper-scissors army types. This occurrence increases with the number of options present in a game. If this is the case then it becomes exponentially harder to determine the balance of individual elements like the Nova Cannon. Unfortunately, it's a trade-off that comes with increasing flexibility and variety in a system. GW tends to favor this route because it improves the relationship between the game and the game universe. Computer games tend to implement fewer options in favor of consistent gameplay, though obviously there are exceptions.

As an aside, this is something I think many players either forget or don't consider when clamoring for "balance." There are other factors in this particular genre of games that have to be considered. While I hear over and over again from some players that "fluff is a poor means of balancing the game," that same fluff is what attracted many, if not most of us to BFG in the first place. If it weren't for that fluff many of us (including me) would not play BFG at all. Thus whether some players like it or not, in order to establish that link between the game and game universe some consolations have to be made between the fictional reality of the setting and the needs of the game. You can't simply say one or the other should always take precedence. Anyway, JMO and sorry for the slight rant.

The problem at the moment is Nate getting those incredible rolls.

In that we agree wholeheartedly. If my dice were that good no one would play me .

Cheers, Gary

[flybywire-E2C]

No Nate, you had more & better scatters in one game then in all my games with or against NC together.

140cm?
That is 40-60-40
Chaos on edge
IN at back

Difference = 100cm.
Without AAF (which he should've done with all ships!).
75cm left.
IN moves 10cm minimum.
65cm left.

Turn 2:
Chaos moves (lockon) 25cm
distance left 40cm. (Move less desirable to avoid 30cm guns of IN if 45cm guns cannot get into play).

All without AAF.


Which should be done in turn one.

Hi Horizon!!      You are assuming we started directly across the table from each other. He started dead center of his 90cm (horizontal) deployment zone 35cm away form the table edge to minimize any slant range advantage I might get. I on the other hand started in the far (my left) corner of my 90cm deployment zone, putting me both 100cm away from his deplyment zone AND 45cm away from the horizontal center point perpendicular to his fleet. Simple trigonometry puts the slant range at about 110cm. Factor that extra 10cm with how much I slowed his ships down (-5cm for two turns), you get a third round of NC shooting. 

I hate calculator gaming. I get enough of calculators at work... 

Incidentally, my son thinks my dice are possessed (we maintain separate dice). I reminded him that HE owns the Chaos fleet, not me! 

- Nate

[silashand]

Incidentally, my son thinks my dice are possessed (we maintain separate dice). I reminded him that HE owns the Chaos fleet, not me! 

Nice 

Cheers, Gary

[BaronIveagh]

Hi,

the Apocalypse takes a critical from firing lances over 30cm. So you should've used that (per FAQ2010 the Apocalypse no longer takes a hitpoint).

I guess the Gothic was AdMech allied? Because the AdMech does not have Dominators, Apocalypse & Mars.

Your Iconoclasts where positioned awkwardly then by moving to far away (you should've calculated the 5cm extra speed).

The Plasma Explosion is just an unlucky event. I had the same once vs Orks: I blew up a Kill Kroozer resulting in more vps to him then to me haha).

I think we did, but it's a thrusters hit.  Since all he had to do was keep moving forward with it to come abeam of me when I hit the blast markers around the gothic it didn't matter much. 

I admit, as AAR's go, mine sucks.  it was a casual game where we were trying out a new, smaller table.  And you were right, playing on a smaller table (I found a 14' by 8' I had put in the attic for us to use) does speed things up.  But it still feels cramped when I try to maneuver. 

[Sigoroth]

@SH & Ad'A

You are talking at cross-purposes here. You have opposite null-hypotheses. SH, you are looking for evidence that the NC is overpowered, therefore it needs to beat a tailored list to show this. Ad'A, you are looking for evidence that the NC is not overpowered, so are looking for a non-tailored list to beat it to show this.

The current state of play is; whine whine whinge "Nova Cannons hurts me" whinge whinge whine "Bad Nova Cannon" suk suk blah "Nerf 'em!" Given this, a better proof to shut these people up is to show not that they are balanced because they don't beat tailored anti-NC lists, but to show that non-tailored lists can beat NC lists. It's a stronger counter-argument, though one or the other should suffice.

[RCgothic]

Well, with a little bit of proxying, I managed this with my mate Steve. I usually play Imperials, but we swapped for this match, with me taking Chaos side.

Imperial Fleet:
Mars, Ld6, Fleet Admiral w/re-roll             
Lunar/NC Ld9,
Lunar/NC Ld7,

Squadron:
Dominator Ld9,
Dominator Ld7,

Squadron:
Dominator Ld6,
Dominator Ld8, 
Total: 1480 points


Chaos Fleet

Squadroned:
Styx, Ld9, Chaos Lord w/re-roll           
Devastation, Ld7,
Devastation, Ld7,

Murder, Ld8,
Murder, Ld8,
Murder/lance variant, Ld9
Hades, Ld6,
2x Infidel, Ld7                           
Total: 1485 points

Deployment:

The Table was 140cm across, Scenario Fleet Engagement. Imperials chose Sphere, Chaos Wedge. Imps won set up and deployment, choosing A and making chaos deploy first. I deployed the Infidels first, but after that I matched the Imperial fleet, who set up in a corner, as far away as he could, a pair of Dominators on each flank, surrounding the Lunars and Mars.

I deployed the carriers in a line so that each carrier was closest to roughly the same number of enemy vessels as the other two, behind a skirmish line of my gunships. The Iconoclasts were a bit out of position on my left flank. Total separation was 96cm between closest cruisers.

First Turn:
Chaos won first turn, and immediately I went AAF with the carriers, rolling 37cm total.  The Murders also went AAF, rolling 45cm, 32cm and 32cm respectively. The Hades and Iconoclasts didn’t get on AAF, and the Hades dropped behind. The Murders managed to stay ahead of the carriers. The Carriers launched, and 14 AC in three waves streaked towards the Imperial lines.
End of Turn Summary:  Chaos 0 hits, Imp 0 hits, cruisers 41cm apart, Chaos Ordnance 40cm from Imps.

The Imperials moved forwards the minimum 10cm, turned slightly away from the closing chaos ships, and attempted to fire on the carriers. 4 Novas passed the leadership check, but they couldn’t focus due to squadron rules. 1 Direct hit to down shields and 2pts of damage on a Dev, the other three shots managed a blast marker on the Styx and the other Dev. The other three Novas, which had failed their target Priority check, targeted the lead Murder, which braced. It dook a direct hit for  downed shields and 3 hits (2 subsequently saved), and a partial hit, which was also saved. The Mars launched fighters, but the Chaos Ordnance manoeuvred around it, to line up an attack run on one of the furthest Dominator Squadron.
End of turn summary: Chaos 3hits, Imps 0 hits, cruisers 31cm apart


Turn 2:
I elected to pass broadside to broadside to the Imps, rather than cross the T, in an attempt to come around behind them. Two of the Murders locked on, whilst the Carriers reloaded. The other ships were either braced, or failed. Gunnery focused on the nearest Dominator Squadron, which braced. The two locked on Murders at >15cm range did two hits to the lead Dominator, which was Abeam, whilst the remaining ships did 3 more hits against a 6+ prow closing. The 3 waves of Ordnance picked on the other Dominator Squadon, which also braced, and the attack craft rolled 24 attacks, doing  3 hits.
End of turn summary: Chaos 3 hits, Imps 8 hits, cruisers all <30cm apart.

With half the Imperials on BFI, the Mars Reloaded, and the Lunar Came to new Heading, swinging around the Chaos fleet. With both the Dominator squadrons braced, return fire is light, a couple of hits on the Hades and the Styx.
End of Turn Summary: Chaos 5hits, Imps8hits

Turn 3:

The Chaos fleet turns behind the Imperials, and the Murders target the near-side Dominators again. At close range, one is hulked, and the remaining one crippled and braced. The Styx and Devs move into base contact and launch a S14 AC wave at the Mars. It fails to brace, takes 9 hits, and has a warp drive Implosion of 15cm. This finishes off the second Dominator, cripples a Lunar, and strips the shields from two Murders and the remaining Dominators.

At this point, with the Chaos fleet on the Imperial’s rear, and most ships braced, we called it. Result:

Imperial Fleet:
Mars, Ld6, Fleet Admiral w/re-roll Destroyed           
Lunar/NC Ld9, 2 hits Braced
Lunar/NC Ld7, 5 hits, Crippled
Dominator Ld9, Destroyed
Dominator Ld7, Destroyed
Dominator Ld6, 3 Hits Braced
Dominator Ld8,  Braced


Chaos Fleet

Styx, Ld9, Chaos Lord w/re-roll  1 hit       
Devastation, Ld7,  2 hits
Devastation, Ld7,
Murder, Ld8, 1 hit
Murder, Ld8,
Murder/lance variant, Ld9
Hades, Ld6, 1 hit
2x Infidel, Ld7                           

[horizon]

Surely we need to restrict long range lances now? Or batteries?

Ah, sorry.

Thing is: would you apply same tactics vs a non-NC as well?
What would happened if IN was more balanced (eg more ordnance, more escorts, more torps)?

I'd say: switch roles as well, so rcG with IN NC heavy vs Chaos.

[Mazila]

Although I vote for 1 nc per 750 pts i really think that this is more of a metagame issue.

For our 1000pts tournaments we limit everything: novas, ordnance, 60cm lances, fleets that are valid etc. But for normal games we just agree with each other and play any way we want.

I think no official limit is needed - players can manage this within their gaming communities.

[horizon]

For our 1000pts tournaments we limit , 60cm lances,

How do you manage that?
AdMech 60cm lance on every cruiser.
Chaos: Murder-Acheron-Devestation-Styx-Hades
That means only Slaughter & Carnage are non-restricted. And a Carnage 60cm with 10wb (broadside) is equal to 2-3 lances at that range.

Just curious as a) Chaos is hampered immense and b) I don't see a necessity in limiting anything beyond the rules even in a tournament setting.

[Mazila]

You are allowed to have up to 6 x 60cm lances firing in same ark, lances that fire LFR count for all arks they can shoot. If you just look at this it might seam odd, you have to take into accout all restrictions we use.

The point of this in 1000pts tournaments is to bring more balance for this exact format of play, to prevent munchkinism and to make it more competetive for all races.

Horizon, I thought my friend sent you full list of those rules recently.

[BaronIveagh]

That is correct, but as I said it would potentially indicate other problems in the two lists. However, since the purpose of this thread is to disprove Nate's assumption (since he's the one who provided the relevant data to analyze) if *any* fleet can reliably defeat the NC fleet (given that all other assumptions I presented remain true) then that will prove false Nate's assumption that NCs are overpowered. Note that this has to include *ALL* fleets, not just Chaos or Imperials. Some fleets will by design be better than others vs certain opponents. Eldar for instance can pretty much ignore NC since their holofields will allow them to approach with near impunity. Necrons are simply fast enough to get out of arc if they wish. Tau railguns will do a number on a NC fleet. Bugs will in general just swarm in as normal. So to say NC are overpowered means that they would have to be so against a majority of *all* fleets, not just one or two.

Wait, did you just say, in a more round about way, that 'my all tombships/nightshades/sporecloud refit list has no trouble with NC, therefor it's not broken'?

[horizon]

You are allowed to have up to 6 x 60cm lances firing in same ark, lances that fire LFR count for all arks they can shoot. If you just look at this it might seam odd, you have to take into accout all restrictions we use.

The point of this in 1000pts tournaments is to bring more balance for this exact format of play, to prevent munchkinism and to make it more competetive for all races.

Horizon, I thought my friend sent you full list of those rules recently.

Hi,
6x60cm lances in 1 arc? That is on average 3 hits. With Lock On bit higher. I see no reasoning to have this limit tbh.

And yes, we received the full list, per Warp Rift we accept all articles without personal judgement/bias/opinion.


BaronI, read Sigoroth's post, he summed the debate between Adm.A and S.H. neatly.

[Mazila]

Hi,
6x60cm lances in 1 arc? That is on average 3 hits. With Lock On bit higher. I see no reasoning to have this limit tbh.

And yes, we received the full list, per Warp Rift we accept all articles without personal judgement/bias/opinion.

We can start a new topic to discuss it after you release a new Warp Rift