Alternative Proposal to Turret Suppression

[Don Gusto]

While reading in the FAQ2010 Ordnance thread and thinking a bit more about bombers/turrets I got this very simple idea. I'm posting it here since the discussion in the other thread has become a bit too focused on that topic. Not sure if its been brought up before:

Each surviving bomber squadron makes d6-turrets attacks with a minimum of one.

I think this would make bombers roughly equivalent to x/x waves under the proposed turret suppression rules from the faq, clear up fighta-bommaz and be much simpler overall.

Thoughts?

[Vaaish]

Is the effect caused by fighters or natural to bombers? It effectively makes no difference between S5 and S6 turrets since those will be more likely to need the min 1 attack.

[fracas]

alternative formats:

1. each bomber making a run rolls a D6. total this value with +1 per surviving fighters.
each turret rolls a D6. subtract this total from the above to get number of bombing attacks against the lowest armor.


2. each bomber making a run rolls a D6 + number of surviving fighter - number of turrets

[Don Gusto]

@Vaaish. Fighters would play no role in this. Just a minimum of 1 instead of 0 for the number of attack runs.

This would give a boost to bombers overall but it is comparable in effect to the FAQ2010 suppression rules.

With the original rules each surviving bomber will on average get:
0 Turrets: 21/6 = 3.5 attacks
1 Turrets: 15/6 = 2.5 attacks
2 Turrets: 10/6 = 1.7 attacks
3 Turrets:  6/6 = 1.0 attacks
4 Turrets:  3/6 = 0.5 attacks
5 Turrets:  1/6 = 0.17 attacks
6+ Turrets: 0/6 = 0.0 attacks

With a minimum of 1 these increase to:
0 Turrets: 21/6 = 3.5 attacks
1 Turrets: 16/6 = 2.7 attacks
2 Turrets: 12/6 = 2.0 attacks
3 Turrets:  9/6 = 1.5 attacks
4 Turrets:  7/6 = 1.17 attacks
5 Turrets: 6/6 = 1.0 attacks
6+ Turrets: 6/6 = 1.0 attacks

A wave of 4 bomber should thus get on average (if the turrets shoot at them):
0 Turrets: 3.5*4.0 = 14 attacks
1 Turrets: 2.7*3.5 = 9.45 attacks
2 Turrets: 2.0*3.0 = 6 attacks
3 Turrets: 1.5*2.5 = 3.75 attacks
4 Turrets: 1.17*2.0 = 2.34 attacks
5 Turrets: 1.0*1.5 = 1.5 attacks (rough approximation, exact value is 1.53125)

Compare this with a wave of 4 AC using the FAQ2010 TSR:
0 Turrets: (4b+0f) 3.5*4.0 = 14 attacks
1 Turrets: (4b+0f) 2.5*3.5 = 8.75 attacks
2 Turrets: (2b+2f) 1.7*2.0+2 = 5.4 attacks
3 Turrets: (2b+2f) 3.88 attacks (calculation gets a bit more complicated from here on)
4 Turrets: (2b+2f) 2.69 attacks
5 Turrets: (2b+2f) 1.85 attacks

[Vaaish]

Wasn't the point of the turret suppression rules to give fighters some reason to escort bombers though? Second, wouldn't this remove most of the difference between 5 turrets and 6 turrets?

[Don Gusto]

I don't know what motivated it. The main effect however is that it makes bombers more viable against high turret targets.
It would remove the invulnerability of ships with 6 or more turrets and furthermore require them to actually use them. The difference between 6 turrets und 5 turrets would be one die.

Edit:
Btw. with FAQ2010 TSR there is also not much difference between 5 and 6 turrets.

[Vaaish]

While I disagree with making bombers more viable against high turret targets, I think that fighters should be tied to the effect if you are going that way. Also, wouldn't you get at least 2 attacks off this with the FAQ2010 rules because of the two fighters each granting an attack:
5 Turrets: (2b+2f) 1.85 attacks

[Don Gusto]

While I disagree with making bombers more viable against high turret targets, I think that fighters should be tied to the effect if you are going that way.

You've lost me here. You are against the general idea but want it done in a certain way?

As for your second question, 5 turrets can roll 4 or more hits - in which case you'll get zero attacks. The average number of attacks includes that probability.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

I'm still for AC (bombers/TBs/ABs) getting relatively stronger but losing to attrition (fighters jumping bombers/TBs/ABs, turrets knocking down bombers).

[Vaaish]

Don't worry about it. I'm just saying I'd go a different direction.

[Sigoroth]

5 Turrets: (2b+2f) 1.85 attacks

Well, 1.84 but close enough. 

[Tygre]

I like the idea for minimum hits.

Maybe if fighters need some sort of escort role, make fighters be able to select what AC they attack in a wave.  And if fighters outnumber the other AC in the wave the other AC get a resilient save.  This will give fighters an escort role like you read in history books (In reality fighters didn't help with the bombing run only getting there.)
Just an idea, reject it if you want.

But I like the idea for minimum hits caused by bombers.

[RCgothic]

With the original rules each surviving bomber will on average get:
0 Turrets: 21/6 = 3.5 attacks
1 Turrets: 15/6 = 2.5 attacks
2 Turrets: 10/6 = 1.7 attacks
3 Turrets:  6/6 = 1.0 attacks
4 Turrets:  3/6 = 0.5 attacks
5 Turrets:  1/6 = 0.17 attacks
6+ Turrets: 0/6 = 0.0 attacks

With a minimum of 1 these increase to:
0 Turrets: 21/6 = 3.5 attacks
1 Turrets: 16/6 = 2.7 attacks
2 Turrets: 12/6 = 2.0 attacks
3 Turrets:  9/6 = 1.5 attacks
4 Turrets:  7/6 = 1.17 attacks
5 Turrets: 6/6 = 1.0 attacks
6+ Turrets: 6/6 = 1.0 attacks

So to be clear, we're talking about a 5-fold increase in the average attacks  for standard bombers vs a T5 target, and a 2.4x increase against T4.

The difference between boosting bombers and changing turret suppression is that one boosts all bombers regardless of wave size, whereas the other has the possibility to scale with wave size, which is more to the point - small waves will get annihilated by a well defended target, but even well-defended targets can be overwhelmed by attack craft waves that blot out the stars.

[Don Gusto]

With the original rules each surviving bomber will on average get:
0 Turrets: 21/6 = 3.5 attacks
1 Turrets: 15/6 = 2.5 attacks
2 Turrets: 10/6 = 1.7 attacks
3 Turrets:  6/6 = 1.0 attacks
4 Turrets:  3/6 = 0.5 attacks
5 Turrets:  1/6 = 0.17 attacks
6+ Turrets: 0/6 = 0.0 attacks

With a minimum of 1 these increase to:
0 Turrets: 21/6 = 3.5 attacks
1 Turrets: 16/6 = 2.7 attacks
2 Turrets: 12/6 = 2.0 attacks
3 Turrets:  9/6 = 1.5 attacks
4 Turrets:  7/6 = 1.17 attacks
5 Turrets: 6/6 = 1.0 attacks
6+ Turrets: 6/6 = 1.0 attacks

So to be clear, we're talking about a 5-fold increase in the average attacks  for standard bombers vs a T5 target, and a 2.4x increase against T4.

Good job on missing the point there.
If you would have bothered to read the following two examples you might have realized that the FAQ2010 turret suppression rules give more of a boost to bombers than having a minimum of one.

[Phthisis]

Im not sure that bombers really need a boost but I'm not really satisfied with the way the turret suppresion works now, especially orks.  I don't see any particular reason bombers should be effective against battleships.  However, if this has to be done, why doesnt each surviving fighter escort after turret fire remove the effect of one turret deduction from the number of attacks each bomber makes?  So if 2 fighters and 2 bombers make it through against a ship with 2 turrets, the bombers make D6 attacks each.