August 08, 2024, 03:27:45 PM

Author Topic: Experimental Ordnance Rules - Nate Montes (flybywire) : 2005  (Read 4600 times)

Offline horizon

  • Moderator
  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4197
  • Destiny Infinity Eternity
Experimental Ordnance Rules - Nate Montes (flybywire) : 2005
« on: October 19, 2010, 02:49:46 PM »
Hey people,
Did a yahoo group search:
----------------------------------

NEW EXPERIMENTAL ORDNANCE RULES (warning- this is LONG!!)

<zip>

SET-UP:
Before the start of a game, each player assembles a number of attack craft counters equal to twice the number of launch bays available to the fleet, in any combination desired.

In mixed fleets that field special ordnance types, no more than twice the number of bays carried by the ship launching the special ordnance can be fielded, counted against the total for the fleet.
For instance, if a fleet has a total of twelve launch bays but only one cruiser equipped with torpedo bombers, up to twenty-four markers may be assembled for the fleet, but no more than eight torpedo-bomber markers may be taken, counted against the total.

When calculating for fleets that have variable launch bays (such as Orks), assemble a number of attack craft markers equal to twice the maximum number of bays available.
For instance, two 'Ammer battle kroozers (each with D3+1 launch bays) would count for sixteen total attack craft markers.

This "store" or Space Wing of attack craft is all the fleet will have available in the course of the battle.

RELOAD ORDNANCE:
Ordnance does NOT run out if a leadership roll results in a double.

ORDNANCE PHASE:
In each ordnance phase, the currently phasing player moves his ordnance first (unless modified by special rules), and then the enemy player does.

Ordnance moves in both players' ordnance phases.

ALL ordnance attacks take place immediately the moment an ordnance marker interacts with another or a starship, regardless in what phase of play the interaction takes place.

Ordnance markers that the rules state must interact must ALWAYS do so and cannot elect to ignore an enemy ordnance marker in actual contact.

As attack craft are removed from play for any reason, the markers are NOT returned to the fleet's Space Wing, they are set aside until the End Phase.

END PHASE:
After all critical damage is repaired by both fleets and all hits are tallied(???), each fleet discards (removes permanently from play) one attack craft marker of the owning player's choice from the fleet's Space Wing for every launch bay permanently lost due to starships becoming crippled, destroyed, etc.

Afterward, each fleet rolls a D6 for each attack craft marker removed from play for any reason. For every roll of 1, an attack craft marker of the owning player's choice is discarded. However, the number already discarded due to lost launch bays may be counted against this total.

In other words, if a player loses two launch bays in a given turn and then rolls a single 1 in the end phase for discarding removed attack craft, he only loses two ordnance markers, not three.

NOTE: Obviously, only the ship equipped to carry special attack craft such as Thunderhawks or torpedo bombers may launch them, so if that ship is lost in the course of the battle, ALL the special ordnance markers attached to that ship must be discarded, even if it exceeds the maximum number of ordnance counters that must be discarded.
For instance, during set-up an Imperial player fielding a single Emperor battleship decides to max out on assault boats and adds 16 of them to his Space Wing. If in the course of a battle the battleship is lost, all sixteen of them must be discarded at the End Phase even if only eight launch bays were lost that turn.

TORPEDOES:
- Vs. fighters: one fighter marker removes a torpedo salvo, regardless of
how large or small the salvo is. This includes any attack craft marker that
incorporates fighter characteristics in any way, such as Thunderhawks. Both
markers are removed. It is still a valid tactic to clear enemy fighters with
small torpedo salvoes.
- Vs. other attack craft: torpedoes ALWAYS ignore and are ignored by
non-fighter ordnance.
- Vs. torpedoes: two torpedo salvoes of any size remove each other,
regardless if they are friendly or not.
- Vs. starships: a torpedo salvo will always attack a ship (friendly or
not), rolling against armor to hit. Regardless of how large or small, a
single str-6 torpedo marker represents a salvo with one or more D6
representing the salvo strength. The moment a torpedo salvo of any type
attacks a starship in the course of its movement, it travels a straight line
for the full length of it movement and is set on the table, making no
further turns even if it would be otherwise allowed to do so. Every ship it
contacts (friend or foe) is attacked by the full strength of the original
salvo as the torpedoes deploy their warheads at multiple targets. Roll a
number of D6 equal to the strength of the torpedo salvo, with each D6
rolling to hit against the armor facing its direction of movement. Torpedoes
that have re-rolls MUST expend those re-rolls, even if the target is already
destroyed. When all attacks are complete, the marker is removed even if some
of the torpedoes missed.
- Torpedo salvoes: Starships that can launch up to six torpedoes must fire
them as a single salvo. Vessels that can launch more than six torpedoes may
launch them in up to two salvoes, with each salvo numbering no less than two
torpedoes.

BOARDING TORPEDOES: Because boarding torpedoes are manned and piloted, they
follow all the rules as described beforehand for other torpedo types except
as follows:
- Boarding torpedoes cannot be fielded by escorts.
- Vs. torpedoes: While boarding torpedoes can be destroyed by other torpedo
types (removing both markers), they themselves lack the maneuverability or
armament to engage enemy ordnance. Thus, two boarding torpedo markers that
contact each other ignore each other, whether or not they are friendly.
- Vs. starships: boarding torpedoes will not attack friendly starships they
come in contact with. When a boarding torpedo marker attacks a starship in
the course of its movement, it completes its movement exactly as described
above for other torpedo types. It then rolls a number of D6 equal to the
salvo strength against the armor of the first target vessel aspect attacked.
Each D6 that scores a hit immediately performs a Hit and Run action
normally, adding in all appropriate modifiers. All torpedoes that missed the
first target can then attack subsequent vessels in its line of movement that
phase to the point where the marker came to a stop. If any boarding
torpedoes remain, the salvo marker now represents the number of boarding
torpedoes that remain in play at the end of its attacks that phase.

FIGHTERS:
- Vs. torpedoes or other attack craft: one fighter marker removes one
torpedo salvo (regardless of how large) or one attack craft marker. Both
markers are removed. Fighters may ignore friendly torpedoes in contact if
they elect to. Any ordnance marker that has fighter characteristics, such as
fighter-bombers or assault gunships, must ALWAYS interact with enemy
ordnance they come in contact with just as fighters do.
- Fighters in an attack craft wave: each fighter in an attack craft wave
automatically has a 4+ save to represent support it receives from bomber or
assault boat turrets in intercepting enemy fighters attacking the wave. This
save can only be used once per fighter marker in the wave per ordnance
phase, but it is in ADDITION to a save the fighter may already come with for
being Resilient, as described later.
- Vs. opposing fighters in a wave: fighters ALWAYS engage enemy fighters in
a wave before they can engage any other kind of ordnance. Both markers are
removed.
- Vs. starships: fighters can be engaged by enemy turrets just as any other
ordnance can, regardless of whether or not they are in a wave. Fighters in a
bomber wave offer no attack bonus when the wave attacks a starship. However
in an attack craft wave that includes fighters, turrets MUST remove all
fighters before they can remove other attack craft markers.
- Combat Space Patrol (CSP): Fighters may perform CSP, escorting friendly
starships instead of actively hunting enemy ordnance. When doing so,
fighters may remain in base contact with the ship they are escorting and
move with it in the movement phase to clear its path of oncoming ordnance.
However, if they do so, they may NOT move at all during their own ordnance
phase. Fighters performing CSP may do so for up to three vessels in base to
base contact with each other. When doing so, they must roll a D6 each time a
blast marker is placed in base contact with the ship they are escorting, and
are removed from play on a roll of 6. Multiple fighter markers performing
CSP on a single vessel are treated as a single wave in all respects.

BOMBERS:
- Vs. fighters: one enemy fighter marker removes one bomber marker. This
includes interactions against any attack craft marker that incorporates
fighter characteristics in any way, such as Space Marine Thunderhawks. Both
markers are removed.
- Vs. torpedoes or other attack craft: bombers ALWAYS ignore and are ignored
by non-fighter ordnance.
- Vs. starships: each bomber marker rolls 2D6 to hit against the lowest
armor value of the target vessel modified -2, meaning if a target vessel's
lowest armor value is 4, the marker scores a hit for each roll of 2+. The
number of turrets a target vessel has does not affect the number of dice
rolled in any way.
- Bomber Waves: a bomber wave gains an extra D6 to attack for every two
bombers in the wave. For instance, a wave of two bombers gets three attack
dice instead of two. A wave of four bombers gets six attack dice instead of
three. Fighters included in the wave do NOT count toward this bonus, but
instead add a single D6 attack to the entire wave regardless of how many
fighters are in the wave. All markers in a bomber wave that attacks a
starship are expended and removed from play, even if the target vessel is
already destroyed.
- Combat Space Patrol (CSP): Bombers may perform CSP, escorting friendly
starships instead of actively hunting enemy ones. When doing so, bombers may
remain in base contact with the ship they are escorting and move with it in
the movement phase. However, if they do so, they may NOT move at all during
their own ordnance phase. Bombers performing CSP may do so for up to three
vessels in base to base contact with each other. When doing so, they must
roll a D6 each time a blast marker is placed in base contact with a ship
they are escorting, and are removed from play on a roll of 6. Multiple
bomber markers performing CSP on a single vessel are treated as a single
wave in all respects. Unless they have fighter characteristics or are
resilient, they have no effect on enemy ordnance, though they may
immediately attack enemy vessels that come in base contact to ram or perform
boarding actions before the starship attack itself is rolled.
- Fighter-Bombers: Bombers that also behave as fighters intercept enemy
ordnance just as fighters do, but their 2D6 attack dice are only modified -1
against the target vessel's lowest armor value instead of -2 to represent
their reduced capacity for carrying anti-ship weaponry. NOTE: Bombers that
are resilient (have a 4+ save) but otherwise do not have any fighter
characteristics are not considered fighters-bombers or fighters in any way,
nor do they have any affect on ordnance except enemy fighters or markers
with fighter characteristics.
- Torpedo-Bombers: For +5 points per launch bay (+10 points for Tau and all
Eldar), a carrier's bombers may be upgraded to torpedo bombers. Torpedo
bombers move no more than 15cm, and only fleets that have access to bombers
can field them. Otherwise, they benefit from all the same benefits bombers
normally would for a given fleet, except that torpedo bombers cannot also be
fighter-bombers. Before a torpedo bomber marker makes its movement, it may
be converted into an str-2 torpedo salvo facing any direction. This salvo
then travels the full distance torpedoes for its given fleet may travel,
attacking starships normally. After being launched, the salvo must be
removed at the end of its movement, regardless of whether or not it attacked
a target. If desired, torpedo bombers in a wave may launch all their
torpedoes together in a single or number of salvos facing any direction if
desired. Torpedo bombers may NOT launch their torpedoes in the same phase
they launch from a carrier.

ASSAULT BOATS:
- Vs. fighters: one enemy fighter marker removes one assault boat marker.
This includes interactions against any attack craft marker that incorporates
fighter characteristics in any way, such as Space Marine Thunderhawks. Both
markers are removed.
- Vs. torpedoes or other attack craft: assault boats ALWAYS ignore and are
ignored by non-fighter ordnance.
- Vs. starships: each assault boat marker rolls a single D6 against the
critical table of the target vessel, modified as per each fleet's special
rules. After adding in all modifiers, a result of 1 is a failed attack, with
any other result applied immediately to the target vessel. This means that
if a particular fleet's assault boats gets a +1 bonus, it will never fail to
inflict some kind of damage unless the roll is modified back downward by the
fleet rules of the vessel being attacked. Because escorts are automatically
disabled/ destroyed by critical damage, a successful assault boat attack
automatically destroys escorts. However, assault boat attacks can be braced
against normally. In addition, because assault boats must actually slow down
and dock with the ship they are attacking, they are hit by turrets on a 3+
vs. a 4+ like other ordnance.
- Assault Boat Waves: all markers in an assault boat wave that attack a
starship are expended and removed from play, even if the target vessel is
already destroyed. NOTE: While attack craft can be hit by turrets on a 3+,
if an assault boat wave has one or more fighter markers in it, 4+ rolls must
be made to remove the fighter markers before any assault boats can be
removed.
- Combat Space Patrol (CSP): Assault boats may perform CSP, escorting
friendly starships instead of actively hunting enemy ones. When doing so,
assault boats may remain in base contact with the ship they are escorting
and move with it in the movement phase. However, if they do so, they may NOT
move at all during their own ordnance phase. Assault boats performing CSP
may do so for up to three vessels in base-to-base contact with each other.
When doing so, they must roll a D6 each time a blast marker is placed in
base contact with the ship they are escorting, and are removed from play on
a roll of 6. Multiple assault boats markers performing CSP on a single
vessel are treated as a single wave in all respects. Unless they have
fighter characteristics or are resilient, they have no effect on enemy
ordnance, though they may immediately attack enemy vessels that come in base
contact to ram or perform boarding actions before the starship attack itself
is rolled.
- Assault Gunships: Assault boats that also behave as fighters may intercept
enemy ordnance just as fighters do in all respects, without having any
effect on their ability to also attack starships as long as they are in
play.

RESILIENT ATTACK CRAFT: Some types of attack craft come with a 4+ save and
are not automatically removed when they interact with another ordnance
marker following the rules stated above. When such an attack craft is to be
removed, instead roll a D6. On a roll of 4+, the attack craft marker remains
in play. This save can be used only once per ordnance phase, meaning if it
interacts with another ordnance marker in the same phase, it is
automatically removed. Resilient attack craft that can interact with both
other ordnance and starships and use their 4+ save to remain in play while
interacting with a fighter performing CSP on a ship's base may then
immediately attack the starship normally.

STARSHIPS:
- Main weaponry can fire on torpedo salvoes or attack craft waves of any
size, with a roll of 6 removing the entire wave or salvo.
- Turrets defend against all types of ordnance at any time.
- Turrets shoot their full strength at each torpedo salvo or attack craft
wave, regardless of how large the salvo/ wave may be, with successful turret
hits removing one torpedo or attack craft marker (fighters first) from play.
Turrets fire separately upon each attack craft marker that splits off from a
wave or attacks individually.
- Vs. fighters: turrets can always fire on fighters, whether or not they are
in a wave. When enemy fighters are in base contact with a starship, they
must always fire on fighters before they fire on any other ordnance.
- Fighters on CSP: Turrets do not fire on enemy ordnance until all friendly
fighters or markers with fighter characteristics performing CSP are removed.



Well folks, that's all I have (whew!) Enjoy!!

- Nate
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 10:54:39 AM by horizon »

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1037
Re: Experimental Ordnance Rules - Nate Montes (flybywire) : 2005
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2010, 03:56:28 PM »
So many squiggly lines...

Offline lastspartacus

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1279
Re: Experimental Ordnance Rules - Nate Montes (flybywire) : 2005
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2010, 07:21:41 PM »
Lol, indeed.  I already have complaints and I havnt read it.  Its so dang long, how can it be a good ruleset?  Seriously :)

Offline horizon

  • Moderator
  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4197
  • Destiny Infinity Eternity
Re: Experimental Ordnance Rules - Nate Montes (flybywire) : 2005
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2010, 08:02:33 PM »
Actually... it is not more then the current set of rules.

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1037
Re: Experimental Ordnance Rules - Nate Montes (flybywire) : 2005
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2010, 10:46:53 PM »
I'd say just total the amount and type of AC and note which markers were lost to fighters or turrets as the game progresses and just remove those from the game regardless of the LB available. I mean squadrons can still land on other carriers. Markers are already being lost to attrition and losing more because of launch bays lost is harsh. What if he launch bays were taken off because of a critical hit and later returns because the crit was repaired?

Offline Hymirl

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Experimental Ordnance Rules - Nate Montes (flybywire) : 2005
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2010, 12:43:21 AM »
The idea seems quite cool, encouragement not to be wasteful with your attack craft. Which I guess is the reasoning behind these rules. I take it there isn't a limit to the amount of ordinance you can have flying at one time beyond the total number of markers you have in your 'pool.'

One observation is to perform the 'do they survive' rolls before discarding attack craft tokens due to ship loss. That would at least save having to have a sentence retroactively altering what you've just done.

I once heard of having attack craft worth 5 victory points for each one removed due to enemy action, in theory as a measure of the war effort expended supplying, repairing and replacing them which is interesting if not entirely fabulous.

Quote
I mean squadrons can still land on other carriers...

If a carrier isn't equipped to support torpedo bombers what exactly would it reload them with? High hopes and harsh language? ;)

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1037
Re: Experimental Ordnance Rules - Nate Montes (flybywire) : 2005
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2010, 01:29:10 AM »
They can still land. Now whether one can still reload them with the right ordnance is another thing. They can still perform as bombers. So the rules can state that if there are survivng TB counters on the table they become bombers if their mother ship is lost and will not be removed from the current total available.

Offline flybywire-E2C

  • BFG HA
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 405
Re: Experimental Ordnance Rules - Nate Montes (flybywire) : 2005
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2010, 03:44:38 AM »
Hey people,
Did a yahoo group search:
----------------------------------

NEW EXPERIMENTAL ORDNANCE RULES (warning- this is LONG!!)

<zip>

Well folks, that's all I have (whew!) Enjoy!!

- Nate


 :o

Horizon, you are a baaaad person for digging this up!    ;D

Like I said, PLEASE let me get through all the projects we have going on right now. I promise, when we are done I will fill your inbox with all kinds of heresies and blasphemies ripe for WR that otherwise would never see the light of day!

You ready for some real madness? Waaaay back in 2000 when the BFG-List was still in it's infancy, a lot of people getting into BFG were dragged into it from playing Warhammer 40k, and after a little while a number of these players recognized the expense of supporting a second expensive hobby and went back to 40k, putting their models up on a shelf. This is how I got my first Chaos, Eldar and Space Marines fleet:  I was sucked in by a few buddies of mine that were all 40k players, ALL of whom except one evetually abandoned the game to return to 40k, selling me their models for pennies on the dollar. In any case, I started with Imperials (the first fleet I actually spent a lot of money on until my son discovered Chaos), and along the way ended up with a second Retribution hull. Since the game at the time only had two Imperial BB's, I decided to try my hand at my first homebrew scratchbuild, during which time I discovered the nascent BFG-List. I created a modified Retribution for 400 points that had an Overlord weapons fit with one minor upgrade: THREE prow Nova Cannon! I was so proud of that thing- it was my first scratchbuild ever!

With a big smile, I introduced it to the BFG-List complete with pictures, not knowing (as a new member at the time) that the going thread was how impossibly overboard the first Nova Cannon rules were. WOW was I popular in a big hurry!  :o     Needless to say, my new creation was met with less than rave reviews. That incidentally is when I first met Bob Henderson, about the only person on the BFG-List at the time that didn't want me drawn and quartered for such an atrocity.

Needless to say, for quite some time now I have two Retributions.  :'( 


- Nate
Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline horizon

  • Moderator
  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4197
  • Destiny Infinity Eternity
Re: Experimental Ordnance Rules - Nate Montes (flybywire) : 2005
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2010, 07:19:06 AM »
Hi Nate,

I dug it up since 'pooling' was brought up in the ordnance thread. I like that aspect to be honest.
Wouldn't mind seeing such micro management being official.

Also, we are still baffled by how someone who designs ships with Three Nova Cannons can become a member of the HA. :) ;)


Plus, Ray Bell wanted the Mechanicus Ark to have a twin-linked Nova Cannon. At least that what was he posted at TacComs.



Offline lastspartacus

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1279
Re: Experimental Ordnance Rules - Nate Montes (flybywire) : 2005
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2010, 10:43:51 AM »
Wonder how that would function.  Like 40k I assume. Pretty sweet.

Offline Trasvi

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 47
Re: Experimental Ordnance Rules - Nate Montes (flybywire) : 2005
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2010, 02:07:09 PM »
Looking at this bit:
Quote
- Vs. starships: each bomber marker rolls 2D6 to hit against the lowest
armor value of the target vessel modified -2, meaning if a target vessel's
lowest armor value is 4, the marker scores a hit for each roll of 2+. The
number of turrets a target vessel has does not affect the number of dice
rolled in any way.
- Bomber Waves: a bomber wave gains an extra D6 to attack for every two
bombers in the wave. For instance, a wave of two bombers gets three attack
dice instead of two. A wave of four bombers gets six attack dice instead of
three. Fighters included in the wave do NOT count toward this bonus, but
instead add a single D6 attack to the entire wave regardless of how many
fighters are in the wave. All markers in a bomber wave that attacks a
starship are expended and removed from play, even if the target vessel is
already destroyed.

So does each bomber get one attack on 2D6, or does each bomber get 2 attacks on 1D6? If the former, the second paragraph needs to be fixed. If the latter, then shouldn't two bombers get 'five dice instead of four' ?


Also... I really like the current rules how torpedoes that detonate on their first target don't hit the ships behind... maybe I'm just crazy, but I like using ships to shield the rest of my fleet.
Although with these rules, you could get the situation where one ship speeds head-on into a torpedo salvo to make it detonate on the spot rather than make it to the rest of the fleet.

I think these rules do a good job of changing the min and max damage. 4 bombers in this scenario vs a Armour 5 Turret 2 ship  would do between 0-9 hits, averaging 4.7.
Currently they could do between 0-16 hits, with average 4.5. Although it does make high turret ships much more vunerable to bombers than now (I laugh at bombers attacking my custodians :) )

Offline lastspartacus

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1279
Re: Experimental Ordnance Rules - Nate Montes (flybywire) : 2005
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2010, 07:34:14 PM »
After reading this, its actually pretty interesting :)