Re-rolls, chain of command, strategy ratings & Orks

[Sigoroth]

I'd like to have a look at the way fleet commanders operate. Firstly I think that they're too expensive by and large. Because they're compulsory in fleets over 750 pts it's reasonably balanced between fleets, since everyone is pretty equally gimped. Of course, there's not much balance within fleets. No one bothers to spend points on them in 750 pt fleets, and people don't generally take the higher LD versions when given the choice. In really high point games people take the higher LD fleet commanders, but mainly because of the way the chain of command works. So I would like to see a general lowering of costs for the FCs in all fleets.

When it comes to re-rolls, we see a call for cheap re-rolls for fleets like Orks while having fairly expensive re-rolls for fleets like Eldar (they get 1 less than the IN do, therefore they can have less maximum and pay more for what they do get). This is somewhat absurd. High Ld fleets like SM and Eldar have less need for re-rolls, therefore they're less useful and should therefore be cheaper to purchase. Conversely they're very useful for an Ork fleet and as such they should cost more. To make re-rolls more expensive for Eldar discourages their use and therefore brings the effectiveness of their leadership down. Making re-rolls cheaper for Orks encourages their use and therefore brings the effectiveness of their leadership up. This defeats the purpose of having high or low leadership. The higher your leadership the cheaper re-rolls should be, and vice-versa.

Of course, I'm sure people will cry that Eldar, etc, don't need powering up and Orks don't need nerfing! But the fact is that high Ld fleets are made that way for a reason, as are low Ld fleets.

The major problem that I see with scaling re-roll costs inversely to fleets leadership isn't the effect it has on individual ship special order checks. Eldar and SM are supposed to execute their orders well, Orks aren't. No, the main problem I see is that it is so easy to fail a Ld check for low leadership fleets like Orks which then wrecks their chain of command. Something that I do not think should automatically happen.

So, I'd like to see the non-FC characters step up to the plate. I'm talking about Chaos Lords, Ork Warlords, IN Captains, etc. These characters should allow their ship to attempt special orders even if there have been previous failures in the chain of command. Their costs and availability to fleets should be based on how individualistic that race is. Raiding fleets and RTs would likely have more individuals than well drilled war fleets. So for Orks they might get one for free for every 500 pts, etc. The only caveat I would have is that fleet commander re-rolls shouldn't be able to be used on ships with these sorts of characters on board.

As for fleet commanders, one of the ways they demonstrate their leadership capabilities is by improving their ships ability to follow orders (generally). Another way is with fleet command re-rolls. I'd like to see another possible FC upgrade. Strategy Rating. It would be cool if the highest kind of Admiral increased your fleets SR rather than just their own ships leadership.

So fix CoC problems with CoC solutions (particularly for Orks - free warlords), scale re-rolls according to their actual worth to the fleet, reduce FC costs across the board and add an option for increasing SR to the FC.

[horizon]

Interesting. Digesting.

[Hymirl]

Surely if you have high leadership, a re-roll is better because while there is less chance you'll need it, there is more chance the re-roll will work. And because they need them less often the re-rolls available will last longer whereas a lower LD fleet will burn though them quicker and get less for it.

"I'm sure people will cry that Eldar, etc, don't need powering up and Orks don't need nerfing! But the fact is that high Ld fleets are made that way for a reason, as are low Ld fleets."

But the fact is also that the low leadership fleets where giving cheap re-rolls for a reason too, namely to make them able follow orders. A fact which you've decided to ignore.

And considering the fluff it makes sense that Orks are naturally not that competent but a suitable commander can by personal intervention but Eldar crews are generally much more able to get by without being shouted at the whole time, and intervention of the fleet commander into the doings of a single ship is much more rare. So I totally disagree with your assessment here.

Allowing fleet commanders to make an exception to the 'no more special orders' makes sense though, even if communication in the fleet is having issues they get to maintain order aboard their own vessel (or squadron). Currently it doesn't make a lot of difference where they are in the fleet which does seem a bit silly. So I agree that it would be a good idea for fleet commanders to do something more useful.

How about CO abilities like in Advance Wars!

[Sigoroth]

Surely if you have high leadership, a re-roll is better because while there is less chance you'll need it, there is more chance the re-roll will work. And because they need them less often the re-rolls available will last longer whereas a lower LD fleet will burn though them quicker and get less for it.

If you think that a re-roll is worth more to a high leadership fleet than a low leadership fleet then play without re-rolls. See who misses them more.

But the fact is also that the low leadership fleets where giving cheap re-rolls for a reason too, namely to make them able follow orders. A fact which you've decided to ignore.

This is not a "fact that I have chosen to ignore". In fact, this is exactly my point. They were given cheap re-rolls to make them able to follow orders. This is tantamount to simply giving them higher leadership. Both of these abilities make them more able to follow orders. But that's not what Orks are supposed to do. The reason they were given low leadership is because they're not very good at following orders. They're quarrelous and inefficient. Then the designers thought "hmm, how do we make our 'not follow orders' fleet follow orders? I know, cheap re-rolls!" Stupid.

And considering the fluff it makes sense that Orks are naturally not that competent but a suitable commander can by personal intervention but Eldar crews are generally much more able to get by without being shouted at the whole time, and intervention of the fleet commander into the doings of a single ship is much more rare. So I totally disagree with your assessment here.

If the direct interjection of the commanding officer is represented by re-rolls, then obviously there is going to be less interjections in high leadership fleets because they're going to pass their base leadership tests more often. It doesn't matter if you have a hundred million re-rolls each, there will be less used in high leadership fleets. This represents the Eldar crews generally being more able to get by without being shouted at. Since "shouting" is less used in an Eldar fleet and more useful in an Ork fleet then surely in the latter they should be more expensive.

Allowing fleet commanders to make an exception to the 'no more special orders' makes sense though, even if communication in the fleet is having issues they get to maintain order aboard their own vessel (or squadron). Currently it doesn't make a lot of difference where they are in the fleet which does seem a bit silly. So I agree that it would be a good idea for fleet commanders to do something more useful.

How about CO abilities like in Advance Wars!

Well I was thinking of non-FC characters. Minor leaders that can take their own initiative.

I've not played Advance Wars, so don't know about those CO abilities.

[trynerror]

I think we should take into account how the rerolls function.

For Eldar and other fleets with good discipline a short order would be enough.

With Orks it would be more like crushing a head and replacing the one with another, that for sure doubles the effort not to be crushed as well ... there are enough other greenskins to be replaced with ! This represents a significant boost in moral - for the moment, which is intended to falter after this order. So I think to make the rerolls cheap and to decrease basic leadership is the right way to represent the orkisch way of command.

[Sigoroth]

I think we should take into account how the rerolls function.

For Eldar and other fleets with good discipline a short order would be enough.

With Orks it would be more like crushing a head and replacing the one with another, that for sure doubles the effort not to be crushed as well ... there are enough other greenskins to be replaced with ! This represents a significant boost in moral - for the moment, which is intended to falter after this order. So I think to make the rerolls cheap and to decrease basic leadership is the right way to represent the orkisch way of command.

Soooo, the Warlord is going to shuttle across to another ship, crack some heads, before heading back to his own ship? This just doesn't make sense. Fleet re-rolls are representative of the FC's command ability. It's nonsensical to suggest that Orks have greater command ability than other races.

[trynerror]

I didn´t say the fleet commander crushes in person, but the chain of command with Orks is "I crush a head below me to get it done before someone above me crushes mine". And Orks are expendable enough to make it work that way.

[Sigoroth]

I didn´t say the fleet commander crushes in person, but the chain of command with Orks is "I crush a head below me to get it done before someone above me crushes mine". And Orks are expendable enough to make it work that way.

There's so much wrong with that that I don't know where to begin.

[Zhukov]

I didn´t say the fleet commander crushes in person, but the chain of command with Orks is "I crush a head below me to get it done before someone above me crushes mine". And Orks are expendable enough to make it work that way.

There's so much wrong with that that I don't know where to begin.

Actually, that sounds quite Orky to me. Let's not forget this is fantasy game. The end result of a passed LD check is what matters here. How an Ork or an Eldar go about it is a non-issue, IMO. For the record, I don't like your rules suggestion Sig. Orks get cheap re-rolls and a lot of them because they burn through them so fast. The high LD fleets must pay top dollar for a re-roll because it means that much to them to pass that particular Ld check.

-Zhukov

[horizon]

I see Sig's problem, or where he comes from.

Ork have low leadership but is doesn't matter because they have many cheap re-rolls.
Eldar have high leadership but only a few expensive re-rolls.

Thus in the end it does not matter. Eldar and Ork are equal in regard to command.

From a logical viewpoint the higher the leadership the merrier the re-rolls.

[Hymirl]

If you think that a re-roll is worth more to a high leadership fleet than a low leadership fleet then play without re-rolls. See who misses them more.

I'm disappointed that you simply decide to be confrontational and aggressive instead of debating the point at hand.

You've also not produced much argument as to why the game should be unbalanced in favour of high leadership fleets. At the end of the day a suggestion that causes the game to be measurably worse is a bad suggestion.

The reason they were given low leadership is because they're not very good at following orders. They're quarrelous and inefficient. Then the designers thought "hmm, how do we make our 'not follow orders' fleet follow orders? I know, cheap re-rolls!" Stupid.

So you advocate fleets that don't work as a solution? Under the circumstances calling design choices 'stupid' is somewhat foolhardy of you.

When you start responding to people with things like; "There's so much wrong with that that I don't know where to begin." I think you make it extremely clear that you have no interest in discussing things maturely. We're done here.

[Sigoroth]

If you think that a re-roll is worth more to a high leadership fleet than a low leadership fleet then play without re-rolls. See who misses them more.

I'm disappointed that you simply decide to be confrontational and aggressive instead of debating the point at hand.

Confrontational? You're a fckn idiot! That's confrontational. Hightlighting in an extremely efficient manner just how ludicrous your statement that "a re-roll is worth more to a high leadership fleet" is not confrontational. This is demonstrating that your argument is flat out wrong. There is no need for further debate. Remove re-rolls from the game, see who suffers more. According to you it should be high leadership fleets, because they're worth more to them. According to me they're worth more to the fleet more likely to need them, ie, low leadership fleets.

Re-rolls represent your FCs tactical and command abilities. Not how loudly he can shout, or how many underlings he can kill. That sort of behaviour actually lowers morale, not boosts it. Morale aside it's a matter of organisation, or rather, a failure of. If your commander is good he'll recognise where individual captains are not on the same page and direct his attention there before things go bad (the re-roll is representative of this foresight). It occurs a priori to the failure. You can't shout at people for failing to do what you wanted after they've failed and expect that to translate into the failure not happening! Maybe next time they'll be on ball, but it does nothing to help for this time. Hell, I bet half the time the Warlord would forget to push the damn "talkytalk" button and end up shouting orders at his screen and venting his spleen on the nearest Ork he could lay hands to.

You've also not produced much argument as to why the game should be unbalanced in favour of high leadership fleets. At the end of the day a suggestion that causes the game to be measurably worse is a bad suggestion.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that a high leadership fleet should not have an advantage in executing their orders over a low leadership fleet? If so, why have leadership at all? Why not roll 1d6 and on a 1 you fail your order.

The reason they were given low leadership is because they're not very good at following orders. They're quarrelous and inefficient. Then the designers thought "hmm, how do we make our 'not follow orders' fleet follow orders? I know, cheap re-rolls!" Stupid.

So you advocate fleets that don't work as a solution? Under the circumstances calling design choices 'stupid' is somewhat foolhardy of you.

What are you talking about? I just suggested a solution! Having characters able to execute orders despite earlier failures! As for the overall balance of Orks, I have looooooooooooooong suggested they be fixed in terms of adding more shooty. The fact that they're a crap fleet has absolutely zero to do with this issue. In fact, if fixing this stupidity makes Orks so bad that they're unplayable then good! Maybe they'll get their fleet fixed right then!

Re-rolls are an indication of a commanders tactical and command abilities, and it's stupid that Orks can get 7 re-rolls for the same price it takes Eldar to get 3. Orks are not better commanders than Eldar.

When you start responding to people with things like; "There's so much wrong with that that I don't know where to begin." I think you make it extremely clear that you have no interest in discussing things maturely. We're done here.

When you start advocating pure gibberish just because you're afraid of losing some power from your fleet then I think that it indicates that you have no interest in the background or character of the respective fleets. When you suggest that I, of all people, am trying to just nerf a fleet into the ground then you quite clearly have not read any of my posts!

Let's have a look at each of the special orders and see if Orks warrant special attention to any of them:

AAF - yep, Orks like to go fast, they should definately get a bonus to checks against this order. Oh wait, they do.
CTNH - very rare for Orks to try to manoeuvre at all. They shouldn't even get to try to use this unless they're going to board or the enemy is right behind them. Which is pretty much the only time an Ork player would try to use it anyway ...
BR - what? Go slow? 'Ardly.
RO - they'd do this when they had to. Nothing to suggest they're any good at it though.
BFI - ugh, should never get to do this. It'd be so rare for an Ork to even try.
LO - hmm, Orks do like to be shooty, but this would require aiming. Never!

So out of the special orders listed above we have quite a few that Orks would very very rarely use or would not be particularly efficient at. Only one would they consistently use, and both their capability and incompetence are equally captured in that current special rule (auto 2d6 AAF). For the rest a leadership of 5-8 seems fair enough. Why should this be artificially raised through the availability of exceptionally cheap re-rolls representing a much inflated command ability?

P.S. - when I say things like "there's so much wrong with that that I don't know where to begin" it means that that was my short answer and that the long one is probably over a page in length. You could've just accepted the short answer and I wouldn't have had to type all this out and you'd not have had to read it. Same end result.

[gribbly_horde]

At the risk of getting my head bitten off, I'll throw an opinion into the ring.

I don't see that either is meant to be a 'poor leadership fleet'.

The thing is, both fleets have to be able to pass command checks. The way the rules work requires it, because ordnance (a big part of every 'basic' fleet's arsenal*) requires a Reload Ordnance! check essentially every turn. Brace for Impact! is a massive part of the way fleets work. The All Ahead Full! rule for orks is neither a benefit nor a curse because of the engine power limit, it just essentially takes that order out of contention.

Lock On!, Come To New Heading! and Reload Ordnance! get used as often as with any other fleet. It doesn't matter if you wish to mentally re-name it as Give It Sum Dakka! or whatever, re-rolls to hit is a massive deal and without totally re-writing the fleet from the ground up, you can't take it away and expect the fleet to remain balanced.

But, whilst both fleets have to be able to pass command checks, the game designers decided that the feel of an orky fleet includes low leadership scores, hence the balance of more re-rolls. I agree. It feels more unpredictable, and it feels more orky. I don't have the one elite crewed 'flagship' squadron with Ld10 that I know can pass checks almost without picking up the dice (like Elsar or Marines), but I can still grind out enough orders to put up a fight.

It also helps match the 'attrition' feel of the ork fleet - good prows (both in guns and armour) but vulnerable sterns, lots of hit points but weak shields, and a dependance on depletable rerolls rather than permanent leadership means that an ork fleet starts scary but gets worse faster as the game goes on.


* Especially orks. Being the only fleet with ability to field a CA-weight carrier in a cruiser clash scenario, for example, is one of their unique advantages

[horizon]

Actually some people I play totally dislike the random leadership in BFG.
They rather pay some extra points to get fixed/higher leadership.

For example:
Imperial Navy
standard is Leadership 7
For 5pts I can give the ship Ld 8.
For 10pts I can give the ship Ld 9.
For 20pts I can give the ship Ld 10.
For a deduction of 5 points I can have Ld6.



Also, that remark from Sigoroth didn't come across as rude to be honest. I've seen far worse.

[commander]

Well, look at other games. When a Ld test is needed to stay around, you only get a re-roll if a battle standard bearer (only one in the entire army) or if some rare magical item is at hand. Low leadership is punished there BUT hey, to compensate the troops are cheap and you have a lot of them.
So why on earth should low Ld fleets get several re-rolls for cheap, any fleet for that matter. And why should other ships automatically fail if one ship fails its command check?