How to beat Corsair Eldar with IN (it CAN be done without stacking!)

[horizon]

Hi,

no need to go on.  I'll be back later.

No escorts make me sad. So much for fluff and staying true to background


warnz...
huh?

Murder is actually ok (see Admiral D'Artagnan's Chaos fleet).

But here you say that all Eldar escorts have a place (not hardcore) yet you have no escorts in the Imperial fleets.

Thats is apples & oranges Zelnik.

Give me 1 reason the Hellebore is actually usefull...

[silashand]

No escorts make me sad. So much for fluff and staying true to background

That is more a problem with non-Eldar escorts in general than a justification that Eldar are overpowered.

Cheers, Gary

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Again, I know about fighting at a disadvantage. It's a nice challenge as long as one has a reasonable chance of winning. However, against Eldar, the reasonable chance of winning is nil against seasoned players.

I know people prefer the Carnages. Look at my Chaos list. It's full of Murders. I know they have their place. However, if I have to use 2 Overlords in order to negate it's lack of punch, which isn't cheap as I need 4 regular cruisers just to get two of them, then never mind. The difference between the Murder and the Overlord is that the former is a cheap cruiser. I don't need to pay for anything more unlike the Overlord which I need to pay a minimum of 220 points per Overlord. That gets expensive fast and may or may not result in getting a reliable list. Meanwhile I can get almost 5 Murders for the cost of 2 Overlords and 2 Dauntless'.

I have tried thinking optimistically about where I can find a use for the Overlord instead of using a Vengeance. Unfortunately, I can't. Vengeance's and Exorcists are much better options than the Overlord. For a few more points, the Armageddon wins out.

The Overlord has a simple enough fix. Instead of FP8@60cm WBs, give it the option to got FP12@45cm WBs for no points change. I'd be happy with that and most likely a few others. BFG is BFG and other games are other games but it doesn't mean that  every race has the same ships. People would even love for the Mars to get a torpedo variant at 10 points less. I would. The result of these ideas? Options which can only benefit the game more. These two ship variants won't even break the game.

[horizon]

No escorts make me sad. So much for fluff and staying true to background

That is more a problem with non-Eldar escorts in general than a justification that Eldar are overpowered.

Cheers, Gary

I disagree. Every escort has its place. I never leave without. Well handled they win your games.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

No escorts make me sad. So much for fluff and staying true to background

That is more a problem with non-Eldar escorts in general than a justification that Eldar are overpowered.

Cheers, Gary

You're joking right? You actually think the non-Eldar escorts are a problem? I can't say the same. IN have the Swords. Chaos is better as a cruiser fleet rather than an escort fleet but some lists do take them. SM escorts are excellent enough stat wise. Orkz live mostly with the Terror ship and the rest, escorts. Nids live by escorts and the Hive Ship. I can say Tau and Necron might have issues with escorts but even then, they're not that bad. Even DE escorts aren't bad.

So maybe it really IS just because the Eldar is overpowered.

[silashand]

I disagree. Every escort has its place. I never leave without. Well handled they win your games.

Funny, in the vast number of games I've played the number of times there are any escorts left on the table after a few turns is frankly miniscule. Cruisers win games. Escorts are little more than ablative armour for them.

So maybe it really IS just because the Eldar is overpowered.

I have noticed that those who claim such also support the idea that list tailoring is a bad idea, as if the tournament mentality is the only means of balancing a fleet. Suffice to say I disagree (and for the record my primary fleet is IN, though I do have all three Eldar fleets, Orks, Marines, Bugs and Necrons as well).

Cheers, Gary

[Zelnik]

I don't own many escorts, horizon, just six fallies, but i confess, i really enjoy cruiser combat!

What uses for the Hellbore? This may seem very 'ideal circumstances, but hear me out.

Target a ship. Knock down shields with the battery, pulsar it to death, if it survives, send the torpedo's into it.  If it doesn't, send the twelve torpedo's into the path (or into) another ship. Twelve eldar torps are more then enough to cripple or even destroy another ship.  


Admiral.

All good points, But I would take two overlords and two dauntlesses any day over five murders. With the advantage of extreme firepower and maneuverability of the dauntless combined with the extreme range of the overlord.  

And No, the 45cm switch is not acceptable.  Why? because it says the ship was an attempt to put battleship weapons on a battlecruiser hull. Making it 45's, would displace the tyrant.  Giving the Mars torpedos would displace the Dictator.  

You have options in the IN fleet, but you shouldn't get THAT many options. Your options will ruin what makes the ships different from one another, and ruin the tactical decisions required at fleet composition. At this rate you should just let people pick what weapons and at what ranges you want to pay for for each cruiser hull.  Hell why not do it for the battleships too? Completely remove the 'class' system for the ships and just have a generic "imperial cruiser" "Imperial Battlecruiser" "Imperial Grand Cruiser" "Imperial battleship". Who needs fluff? who needs background?

[Zelnik]

You're joking right? You actually think the non-Eldar escorts are a problem? I can't say the same. IN have the Swords. Chaos is better as a cruiser fleet rather than an escort fleet but some lists do take them. SM escorts are excellent enough stat wise. Orkz live mostly with the Terror ship and the rest, escorts. Nids live by escorts and the Hive Ship. I can say Tau and Necron might have issues with escorts but even then, they're not that bad. Even DE escorts aren't bad.

So maybe it really IS just because the Eldar is overpowered.

Are. You. Mad.

Tau escorts, especially the FW tau escorts are incredible. 5+ armor, 90 degree turns, 3 batteries 2 turrets and 2 tau torpedos? these ships are great! The orca and Warden are cheap as spit and have 2 batteries and a lance! all you need are grav hooks and you can get those with no problem.  they ALSO have access to the Nicassar Dhow, which is the BEST ESCORT IN THE GAME!

Necron Escorts are INSANE, 6+ armor, d6x10 AAF, the jackals have PORTALS for splb's sake! I have crippled ships in the first round by doing AAF with some dirges, moving them behind an enemy fleet and attacking a ship from where they can't get me! the 2+ brace keeps them alive! 50CM speed helps too.

Dark eldar escorts are just as crazy.  45cm speed, shadow fields, and are the best platform to take Impaler assault modules.

[horizon]

Hi Silashand:

Funny, in the vast number of games I've played the number of times there are any escorts left on the table after a few turns is frankly miniscule. Cruisers win games. Escorts are little more than ablative armour for them.

Then stop using them as ablative armour.

I have noticed that those who claim such also support the idea that list tailoring is a bad idea, as if the tournament mentality is the only means of balancing a fleet. Suffice to say I disagree (and for the record my primary fleet is IN, though I do have all three Eldar fleets, Orks, Marines, Bugs and Necrons as well).

Are you saying tailoring is okay?

Hi Zelnik,

What uses for the Hellbore? This may seem very 'ideal circumstances, but hear me out.

Target a ship. Knock down shields with the battery, pulsar it to death, if it survives, send the torpedo's into it. If it doesn't, send the twelve torpedo's into the path (or into) another ship. Twelve eldar torps are more then enough to cripple or even destroy another ship.

Mind you torps can explode on a blastmarker.
So, one juicy target for the enemy to shoot at = 450 points..
I could also take 6 Nightshades @ 6 Hemlocks for 480 points.
Same amount of weaponry But double amount of hitpoints, double amount of survival. A Nightshade & Hellebore are both to be killed with 1 lucky dice. The expensive ship has no advantage.

Normally I go by squadrons of 3, that way I present 4 different targets to the enemy to chose from. Even two squads of 6 possible.
Attack wise I can do the same. I can apply different tactics (eg splitting).

warnz
Yes (we agree.... ). Tau Orca's, Wardens & Castellans, and even Defenders are good.
But I disagree (lol) on the Dhow.

[Zelnik]

On a six.  The same odds an escort pops on the same blast marker

In the end, horizen, it's a matter of choice, i would rather have the power focused in one squadron, with a lower chance of blowing my reload orders, but i DO have fleets that have two sets of six of the 40 point escorts. They ARE useful, you just don't use them

The dhow is great.. 2 shields, 2 turrets, 180 degree turn and 3 port AND starboard weapons? I will not hear a bad word against it!

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Are. You. Mad.

Tau escorts, especially the FW tau escorts are incredible. 5+ armor, 90 degree turns, 3 batteries 2 turrets and 2 tau torpedos? these ships are great! The orca and Warden are cheap as spit and have 2 batteries and a lance! all you need are grav hooks and you can get those with no problem.  they ALSO have access to the Nicassar Dhow, which is the BEST ESCORT IN THE GAME!

Necron Escorts are INSANE, 6+ armor, d6x10 AAF, the jackals have PORTALS for splb's sake! I have crippled ships in the first round by doing AAF with some dirges, moving them behind an enemy fleet and attacking a ship from where they can't get me! the 2+ brace keeps them alive! 50CM speed helps too.

Which is why I had a qualifier. "Might" and I did say they're not bad.

Dark eldar escorts are just as crazy.  45cm speed, shadow fields, and are the best platform to take Impaler assault modules.

And again, I said they're not bad. So we actually agree on things.  

[Zelnik]

The one key thing that i need to point out, Eldar escorts, and even the dark eldar escorts.. all have 4+ armor.  Even if you get ONE Shot with a battery (you just need a st 3), they DIE on a 4+.  Not that hard.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

All good points, But I would take two overlords and two dauntlesses any day over five murders. With the advantage of extreme firepower and maneuverability of the dauntless combined with the extreme range of the overlord.  

I wouldn't. I would always take the 5 Murders. Even if the Dauntless' flank the Murders, they'll be looking at a combined WB FP of 50 on Lock On. Meanwhile the 10 60 cm lances focusing on one Overlord at a time means BFI'd Overlord for one turn and another BFI'd Overlord the next.

And No, the 45cm switch is not acceptable.  Why? because it says the ship was an attempt to put battleship weapons on a battlecruiser hull. Making it 45's, would displace the tyrant.  Giving the Mars torpedos would displace the Dictator.  

Why would it displace the Tyrant? 195 points for the FP10@45 cm then buy the Overlord with 2 of the Tyrants for solid WB fire? I'd do that in an instant. As Sigoroth once suggested (at least that's what I recall), the Tyrant really should come with all base 45 cm for 190 points instead of 195. Then again, these are just my ideas (the Overlord weapon switch and Mars torp switch), though I am not the only one who has provided them.

However, I wouldn't even mind if they just got rid of the Tyrant and then replace it with a torpedo variant Dominator. This way, the base cruisers all retain 30 cm weaponry with 6+ prow, with a sprinkling of NCs and ACs. The longer ranged weapons can then stay on the BCs and the GCs and the Battleships. Still very IN.

You have options in the IN fleet, but you shouldn't get THAT many options. Your options will ruin what makes the ships different from one another, and ruin the tactical decisions required at fleet composition. At this rate you should just let people pick what weapons and at what ranges you want to pay for for each cruiser hull.  Hell why not do it for the battleships too? Completely remove the 'class' system for the ships and just have a generic "imperial cruiser" "Imperial Battlecruiser" "Imperial Grand Cruiser" "Imperial battleship". Who needs fluff? who needs background?

There are still differences between races even with those options in place. Also, I'm not saying limit the option availability to IN. Every race should get the options as long as again it is fluffy and fits the faction's playstyle. It's time to let the game evolve further. Face it, the last few races that have come out like Nids and DE basically have one cruiser profile and you can just mix and match weapons. I think IN and Chaos can be the same. What differentiates one from the other would now be how the weapons perform.

[horizon]

Hi Zelnik,

if I go by one 6 strong Nightshade squadron I need the same amount of reloads as one Hellebore squadron. Hemlocks do not need reload.

Well, yes they die on a 4+. But Dark Eldar escorts will be closing within 30cm where as Corsair Escorts will be above 45cm abeam or moving away.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

The one key thing that i need to point out, Eldar escorts, and even the dark eldar escorts.. all have 4+ armor.  Even if you get ONE Shot with a battery (you just need a st 3), they DIE on a 4+.  Not that hard.

Yes but how often can IN get that one shot in? Esp as Eldar escorts generally will be at ranges above 45 cm? Amount of dice are going down really fast now.