Orkz - gib uz a brik

[lastspartacus]

I never understood how basic Ork kroozers had ranges IN cruisers struggled to reach anyway.

[Plaxor]

I'll admit, it surprises me too they are considering this. I just saw what people were asking for in an Assault Kroozer type ship, put some numbers and values to it, and slapped a price tag on it as a starting point! Maybe Nate has created an alternate profile, unless playtesting this actually turned out well? I don't think my profile conflicts with Kill Kroozers since they are a gunship and mine, clearly is not, lol. Ork's not crafty enough for A-Boat only Launch Bays? How so? They already get A-Boats so why wouldn't a boarding designed vessel get them too? I think that's better than having side mounted, boarding torpedo tubes. And I believe this vessel shouldn't have flank guns because it runs counter to what this ship is designed to do. Not to mention, I can make the argument the builder removed the guns for added space for Boyz which is why they get 2 teleport attacks and double boarding value?

Hey Zhukov, I wasn't saying that they wouldn't make Aboat only launch bays. I was saying that Orks usually don't design ships to make sense, and a vessel with P/S boarding torpedoes would be interesting. Also all launch bays in existence use all the craft available to the fleet, doesn't mean that you couldn't give them that, just limiting confusion.
 

1. Speed to close (Faster than the other cruisers. Soopa Engines is a nifty idea actually...)

I think soopa engines works better with the fluff, and has about the same effect

2. Armor heavy (If it's designed to go board space stations, it should have a good protection. Can't give an Ork cruiser more shields so I added more armor. I chose not to keep the rear at 4+ since this vessel wouldn't stand a chance against the Launch Bays a space station has so it would defeat the purpose!)

I still think you should go 6+prow/5+ at the very least. Side armor isn't as important to an Ork, they only think about the most obvious part to armor (the prow). Also if you look at how 5+ armor sides compared to 6+ armor prows according to the gunnery chart they are statistically about the same.

3. Ordnance Heavy (I figured a good way for this ship to survive it's way into the teeth of the enemy is if you knock the teeth out! With boarding torps and a-boats (which adds emphasis to the type of ship it is) you can easily knock out the weapons of an enemy vessel or station.)

Totally Awesome.

4. Boarding heavy (Special rules for boarding value so it can take on Stations. 2 Teleport attacks gives it something to do if it can't quite ram or board. Power Ram, well what better way to make a door in an enemy ship ")

I would give it terminator teleport assault instead. Already exists in the current rules. So roll 2d6 on teleport attacks and pick the highest.

5. Guns light (I gave it just enough weapon strength so it CAN support other ships in the fleet and more importantly, take down shields of eventual ramming/boarding/teleport target.)

Yep, of course I don't think that an assault Kroozer would have 45cm guns.

I can see setting speed at 20cm but adding Soopa Engines and reducing side armor to 5+. Also I could see changing the front Gunz to range 30cm, but that would be strange since the other Kroozers have 45cm. It wouldn't mesh as well in my opinion.

Apparently missed this part before I started typing up my response, but yes, this is what I would do.

[Plaxor]

I never understood how basic Ork kroozers had ranges IN cruisers struggled to reach anyway.

IN doesn't have the accuracy. Orks don't need accuracy, they just use loads more Dakka!

[flybywire-E2C]

Hi everyone! I wanted to get this out before Christmas while I'm on vacation, which explains why I haven't been on the Forum for a few days. I'll be back on Monday and will catch all your bolter rounds and the like for this latest project.

...and now da Orks hav' a break...

Ork Clanz DRAFT v 1.0
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q 

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

-   Nate

[Plaxor]

My God Nate.... This is radically different than anything that I would've ever expected.

Big Boostas . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +25 pts
(+5pts/escort) the ship gains +5cm speed, and it rolls
4D6cm when on All Ahead Full special orders.

I think that this should be cheaper, and instead be soopa engines, as they already exist in the ork ruleset.

Looted Lances . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +30 pts
(+10pts/escort) Any heavy gunz batteries on the ship
can be replaced with a Strength 2 lance battery.
Range is 15cm for escorts, 30cm for port/starboard
batteries, 45cm for prow batteries.

What? So for 30 points I can replace my prow heavy guns with lances? I would instead make this free, and have it be Strength of heavy guns/2 = the number of lances ALWAYS AT 15cm. People don't take prow heavy guns because of the range limitations, similarly, I could see people doing this and having a shit-ton of ridiculously shooty Kill-Kroozers. Then again 185 points is a fair amount for the amount of Dakka you're putting out there.

It is specifically stated in the Ork fluff that lances are nearly impossible for them to operate. Mostly this is because they don't want to devote the power to it. This is why only two vessels have these weapons, and I think having this destroys a bit of Ork character. However, I could see them having 15cm range lances (as they don't know how to operate them well enough to fire further).

Heavy guns are worth about 1.33 regular guns batteries at 15cm. If a lance is worth ~2wbs at close range, then it would be reasonable to have a 2:1 swap for free to lances. The lances would be a bit less powerful than heavy guns, but this is what makes sense for Orks.

Young guns and Mob Rule is somewhat confusing. If I take a bunch of squadrons at 4 models and hope I roll 5's or 6's then I get a bunch of free escorts and will get improved leadership?

I think this whole special rule system/purchasing system would be better represented by a more correct points value on the current line up of ships. Free Warlords & Escorts? Something to line up for stuff.

Tellyportas are a very rare thing. Actually Teleporters  in IN fluff only exist on military vessels, as they are a very rare archeotech item. For gameplay they are added to every capital ship, ignoring fluff. I don't think that a seperate upgrade is necessary, instead I would give them terminator teleport assault as an option.

Also Orks do not need a bonus to Ramming. Here's an analysis: (chart is chances of success on any given ld check)

Ld 5    Ld6     Ld7  Ld8     Ld9
27.7% 41.7% 58% 72.2% 83.3%

Orks will have an average chance of passing an ld check of 49.8%, they only have to make 1 to ram, so this is 49.8%

For IN they have an average chance of passing an ld check of 64%, but they have to make 2 so this becomes 41%

So Orks are almost 10% better at the one maneuver. Considering they have the detrimental LD this ultimately is a 25% boost for them on one ld check.

People want their fleet to be very definitively the best at their 'thing' but really I don't think spaceships vary that much. Orks are 10% better at this, marines are... +1 modifier better at boarding than orks, Chaos has slightly longer range. It's not that huge of a difference


Also with the clans, I don't think there really is any way of convincing you, but I don't think they should be done in specific 'mark' style upgrades. I think that they should be more generic, like how they do the upgrades for vampires in vampire counts.

They are fairly well representable within the current ruleset, if one were playing a 'fluff' list then Goffs would have Mega-Armored boarding parties, Bad Moons would have maniak gunners or extra power fields, blood axes could have powerfields or maniak gunners or maybe looted torps, Deathskulls... looted torps (maybe power fields, as these could be stolen) and loads more re-rolls, Evil Sunz would need an upgrade (such as soopa engines) to represent them, and snakebites couldn't take any.

These are fine, and the list should be designed so fluff players could build their list, but not add in the extra 'thoughts' for them.

[Plaxor]

Also with the upgrades I would make people buy them on a squadron basis, for the standard points cost

I.E. 4 onslaughts purchase maniak gunners for 25 points. This would simplify things and convince people to buy larger squadrons.

[flybywire-E2C]

My God Nate.... This is radically different than anything that I would've ever expected.

Big Boostas . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +25 pts
(+5pts/escort) the ship gains +5cm speed, and it rolls
4D6cm when on All Ahead Full special orders.

I think that this should be cheaper, and instead be soopa engines, as they already exist in the ork ruleset.

This isn’t entirely unreasonable, but as it’s a cut and paste from Andy C’s material, it’s not like I just fanboy’ed this together. Done.

Looted Lances . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . +30 pts
(+10pts/escort) Any heavy gunz batteries on the ship
can be replaced with a Strength 2 lance battery.
Range is 15cm for escorts, 30cm for port/starboard
batteries, 45cm for prow batteries.

What? So for 30 points I can replace my prow heavy guns with lances?

Yes.

I would instead make this free, and have it be Strength of heavy guns/2 = the number of lances ALWAYS AT 15cm. People don't take prow heavy guns because of the range limitations, similarly, I could see people doing this and having a shit-ton of ridiculously shooty Kill-Kroozers. Then again 185 points is a fair amount for the amount of Dakka you're putting out there.

This should certainly NOT be free. Orks can use lances but should suck at it. Hence, they should be expensive.

It is specifically stated in the Ork fluff that lances are nearly impossible for them to operate. Mostly this is because they don't want to devote the power to it. This is why only two vessels have these weapons, and I think having this destroys a bit of Ork character. However, I could see them having 15cm range lances (as they don't know how to operate them well enough to fire further).

Heavy guns are worth about 1.33 regular guns batteries at 15cm. If a lance is worth ~2wbs at close range, then it would be reasonable to have a 2:1 swap for free to lances. The lances would be a bit less powerful than heavy guns, but this is what makes sense for Orks.

 

Agreed. It doesn’t destroy their character if it is made rare and expensive. If some flash gits mob wants a lance-heavy Ork fleet, he’s gonna pay a LOT of teef for it and in the end probably come up short against other fleets. One of the Orks’ biggest benefits is having relatively cheap ships, which this list tries to reinforce by rectifying some of the escort point cost issues. Taking a heap of lances defeats this without doing anything to really make the ships any better defensively.

Young guns and Mob Rule is somewhat confusing. If I take a bunch of squadrons at 4 models and hope I roll 5's or 6's then I get a bunch of free escorts and will get improved leadership?

Yes.
Of course, doing this on the hope of getting poor leadership for a free escort means you miss out on having big squadrons that get to take advantage of Clan goodies for a large point bargain. Everything’s a trade-off.

I think this whole special rule system/purchasing system would be better represented by a more correct points value on the current line up of ships. Free Warlords & Escorts? Something to line up for stuff.

Your suggestion in the end achieves nearly the same end-effect as the current approach. It isn’t better or worse, just different.

Tellyportas are a very rare thing. Actually Teleporters  in IN fluff only exist on military vessels, as they are a very rare archeotech item. For gameplay they are added to every capital ship, ignoring fluff. I don't think that a seperate upgrade is necessary, instead I would give them terminator teleport assault as an option.

The tellyporta comes from the “Red Orktoba” machine invented by Orkimides to teleport troops to the surface of Armageddon from halfway across the system. A moving ship is a far harder target than a (relatively) stationary planet so the range is shorter, but still VERY long nonetheless. However, the idea is sound, and we can look at this as a separate item or something else.

Also Orks do not need a bonus to Ramming. Here's an analysis: (chart is chances of success on any given ld check)

Ld 5    Ld6     Ld7  Ld8     Ld9
27.7% 41.7% 58% 72.2% 83.3%

Orks will have an average chance of passing an ld check of 49.8%, they only have to make 1 to ram, so this is 49.8%

For IN they have an average chance of passing an ld check of 64%, but they have to make 2 so this becomes 41%

So Orks are almost 10% better at the one maneuver. Considering they have the detrimental LD this ultimately is a 25% boost for them on one ld check.

People want their fleet to be very definitively the best at their 'thing' but really I don't think spaceships vary that much. Orks are 10% better at this, marines are... +1 modifier better at boarding than orks, Chaos has slightly longer range. It's not that huge of a difference

Ramming and boarding is what Orks do best. Like you said, Orks should be the best at their ‘thing,’ and this allows them to do that. As you yourself demonstrated, the actual difference (10% better than everyone else at the ONE thing they are actually supposed to be good at) is not that consequential. The fact that they do this 25% better than they do any other kind of Ld check means the mechanic actually works and doesn't break how Orks are otherwise supposed to be generally worse than races at making leadership checks.

Also with the clans, I don't think there really is any way of convincing you, but I don't think they should be done in specific 'mark' style upgrades. I think that they should be more generic, like how they do the upgrades for vampires in vampire counts.  

They are fairly well representable within the current ruleset, if one were playing a 'fluff' list then Goffs would have Mega-Armored boarding parties, Bad Moons would have maniak gunners or extra power fields, blood axes could have powerfields or maniak gunners or maybe looted torps, Deathskulls... looted torps (maybe power fields, as these could be stolen) and loads more re-rolls, Evil Sunz would need an upgrade (such as soopa engines) to represent them, and snakebites couldn't take any.

These are fine, and the list should be designed so fluff players could build their list, but not add in the extra 'thoughts' for them.

The ‘thoughts’ were written by Andy C and Gav Thorpe. Despite what some may feel about those guys, they have probably produced more material for Orks in BFG and WH40k than anyone. How the game creators feel a race should behave and be represented trumps anyone’s opinion, even mine.

-   Nate

[lastspartacus]

Power rams cost twice as much for Orks as they do Imperials?  What gives?

Love the tellyporta idea.

No lances outside the Slamblasta unless it itself is a character kroozer or escort squadron with 15 lances!

Can any escort take traktor fields?

Why not make Klaws work exactly as Massive Claws?

Am I reading it right that escort squadrons can be taken up to 10?

What about an ork capital ship replacing its heavy gunz for a 'supa power ram' that takes up the entirety of the heavy gun area and does ramming damage on a 4+ like a giant power weapon in space.

More later, interesting for sure

[lastspartacus]

Also just noticed that the Grunt, while perfect at first, is now completely ruined.  Now only 2hp to board and 45 degree turns.
What gives?  Take it back to the way it was, make it 6+, 4+, and its all good.

[lastspartacus]

More thoughts:

Lots of needlessly complicated little rules. Not a fan at all of the concept for young gunz or mob rule, they need to go.

Boarding torps should be standard for all ork ships, much more so than chaos.

Why are torpedo bommas so pricey?

The shokk attack lance looks kinda powerful, but hilarious enough to keep me from discounting it sight unseen ^^

Now I understand the 10 point ram prow, you get a ld bonus as well.  I don't agree with this, just make it a 5 point upgrade for any cap ship.
The Orks already have been proven to be better statistically at ramming than Imperials.

Attack karrier is too much trouble.  Just make boarding torps free for all orks, as it should be.

The Skwadrons section is way too complicated.  If you want rerolls beyond the Warlord's ship/squadron, just make them fleet rerolls.  If not, then don't.  Call the Warlords Big Bosses and make an option for 1 Warlord as fleet commander.  He can have fleet rerolls, +1 leadership maybe.

Instead of warlords being able to take multiple upgrades, and based on their rerolls, I suggest having an alternate 'Big Mek' leader who has access to more upgrades but only the base reroll.

[lastspartacus]

(And wheres the brute in that list?)

On the Clanz:

I like the idea alot.  I think the clanz upgrades for escorts should at least be half points up to 4 or 5.

For the clanz, I have a request.  Rather than continuing to increase Ork ships past the point of Imperial ships with all the upgrades and clanz bonuses, would it be possible to add negatives to balance the positives, so that all of the Clanz rules can be free?  For instance, the Goffs gain their +1 to boarding and ramming, but also gain 4+ side armor, due to their belief that the enemy will never be anywhere but in front of them and closing.

As for the rules as is:

Goffs:  Cool!

Evil Sunz:  Cool, but pricey for cap ships.

Bad Moons: Holy crap thats not worth the points.

Deathskullz:  Cool in concept, but don't like the general idea of looted lances.  The idea of lance boat Savages makes me laugh.

Blood Axes:  Cool!  Give em a +20 nova cannon option that has shorter range and always scatters 3d6

Snakebites:  Cool!  Nice bonus if you choose to have only escorts and roks/hulks.  I take it to mean the escorts still gain the bonus?


Proposed Clanz negative balancing ideas.
Goffs: 4+ side armor
Evil Sunz: 5+ front armor or 4+ side armor
Bad Moonz: Few options.  No +1 racial boarding bonus and may not ram.  They too rich for that stuff, and it might hurt their ships!
Deathskullz: -1 hit on cap ships and escorts gain cruiser status due to crappy(er) construction?  Random criticals after shooting phase?
Blood Axes: May not take grunts or brutes, they use more advanced gunships.
Snakebites:  Disadvantage built in.

[Plaxor]

Lol, really had your defense planned out eh Nate?

[Zhukov]

YES MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!!! WOOOO HOOOOO!!!! lol This made my day!

Couple things I noticed:

Warlords for free. I guess you did this because of all the other upgrades Ork's can buy now? I think a re-roll should NEVER be free.

Warlords again. Is the +2 for "one boarding dice roll" for the entire game? Needs to be re-worded to make this clear.

Re-roll cost. With the multiple options of getting ships with +1 to rolling for ramming elsewhere (can they be stacked???), these should be much more expensive. The main reason these were bought was because it gave the Orks a chance to do their favorite thing, ram. Now the re-rolls are going to be used for SO's, which should be hard to come by.

Squadrons. I am so totally lost by this section I'm not sure where to begin honestly. Let me see if I'm getting this right....

              First you determine the size of the battle. Let's say 1500 pts.
              This means (as written now) you recieve three Warlords.
              Then you determine how many extra re-rolls you want to purchase.
              For every re-roll, you MUST get one escort squadron AND one cruiser or Battleship.
              Let's say you have a total of 7 re-rolls in your fleet.
              So you must buy at least 7 escort squadrons of at least three vessels per and 7 capital ships with the only restriction being you need 2 cruisers to purchase a BB?
              Then you allocate the vessels to each "command" of Warlord based on how many re-rolls they have total?
              Then if you have any points left over, you can purchase the plethora of upgrades?
              
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems just a BIT complicated and restrictive to me.
            

Gubbins for Escorts. Should read that "Gubbins purchased for escort squadrons apply to every vessel in that squadron, but each vessel must purchase the upgrade individually". Otherwise it's confusing because it almost sounds like it take only +5 points to uprgrade the whole squadron with ____!!!!

Big Boosters. Should rename them to Soopa Engines.

Looted Lances. Don't like Lances in an Ork fleet unless they only have 15cm range forward firing and armed on a Kroozerm or the special Slambasta lances. No escort sized vessel should have the power supply to arm Lances.

Make Mad Meks dirt cheap. Otherwise, nobody will EVER buy these.

The Klaws. The Rule says you inflict the 1 HP of damage for ramming or boarding. Soooo not both if the Ork vessel can do both? And why not? What are the Klaws exactly? Things attaced to the ship or boarding parties armed with Klaws?


Zukov's Klaw  specifically:
4+ Armor for the rear. When this forum started throwing around the idea of this ship, we wanted it to go after space stations. But with 4+ armor to the rear, the bomber squadrons from the station will rip this ship up! Now I realize you have built the fluff for this, but if your not open to the idea of making the rear 5+ armor, why not increase the base number of turrets? This is advantageous for boarding values too, which is the whole point of this ship! Turret value of 2 or 3 and increase cost by ___ pts per turret. I have no beef with that.

Is this a character ship? Becuase it should be listed in the Ork fleet list if it is. And, if it is, it should get something to make it more.... unique. Like, allowing two teleport attacks! Gives it a reason to actually HAVE a name. Otherwise, take it off the pdf since the rules are explained quite clearly on what upgrades an Assault Kroozer has and this offers nothing to the document as a whole.

You made a mistake at the bottom of the special rules. You said it can't go on All Ahead Full. I think you meant Come to New Heading?

Light Kroozer:
Design phiolosophy. I see the stats are for a captured Endeavor class but the model illustrated would tell me it's more of a Dauntless. I think we should get stats for both variations The Dauntless variation for instance should have D3 Gunz for each broadside and D6 Gunz to front and 6 Heavy Gunz or D6 torps to front! The Endeavor should be D6 Gunz to each broadside, D3+1 Gunz to front and D3+1 Torps or 4 Heavy Gunz.

Grunt Assault Ships:
Increase the Boarding value back to 4. It's going to be hard to get any more than 2 of these guys into base-to-base contact with an enemy at one time so 2hp boarding value will make it really hard in my mind to be worth it.


Just my 2 cents

-Zhukov

[Zelnik]

The ram spikes cost more because they do more... namely that +1 ld AND the spare damage.

I was SO happy when i read that.
 

[lastspartacus]

Need to be 5 and normal.  No bonus needed or warranted, imo.