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Author Topic: Orkz - gib uz a brik  (Read 65734 times)

Offline fracas

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #120 on: November 26, 2010, 01:55:18 AM »
It's a good start Nate
Boost ork turrets?

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #121 on: November 26, 2010, 02:04:43 AM »
It's a good start Nate
Boost ork turrets?

The Ravager has two turrets in the current profile, and the Grunt will have 2 as well. Everything else will remain unchanged.

- Nate

Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #122 on: November 26, 2010, 02:06:58 AM »
Great to be ignored -_-

Fracas' suggestion is a minimum requirement.  Orks are twice as weak to ordnance as any other fleet in the game, and ordnance has proven to be the premier game winner, currently.  4+ armor coupled with ridiculously low turrets equals super dead ships.

At least double all ork turrets, and, maybe orks suffer a -1 up to 6?  Tons of ork turrets but they enemy bombers dont suffer suppression? (bad coordination in turrets)  Orks love dakka.  Their ships should have very little hull space between the gunz.

Offline fracas

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #123 on: November 26, 2010, 03:06:54 AM »
Leave the number of turrets as is then
But make them work better like hitting on a 3+ or reroll misses

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #124 on: November 26, 2010, 06:16:49 AM »
Quote
Okay, here's what we are looking at.

All Ork escorts keep their profiles from BFG 1.5 except for price changes:

Ravager: 40 pts (unchanged)
Onslaught: 35 pts
Grunt: 35 pts (new ship, profile to follow)
Savage: 30 pts
Brute: 25 pts (unchanged)

Thoughts?

Beautiful. I like the fact that you made the savage 30, I would've made it 35 but changed the 'no column shift' rule, but this works just fine. I've been running a squadron lately (because I finally painted a few, and from my # study) and testing them out against various fleets. I've never run them before thinking of them as worthless, or as the general consensus of gothic players. They are actually not bad.

The onslaught at 35 points... well at this value it's still a bit underpowered IMO, but that's more or less fine.  I would probably boost its guns back to D6+1, but this would seem weird as it's average would be more than a sword at the same cost. Then again it does have some disadvantages comparatively (turns, speed and turrets). Still without the +1 then it's disadvantages would be four things. I would've probably made the Onslaught 30 and the savage 35 (then changed the shift rule of course). They will be still unpopular at this value.

I've always run escort-heavy ork fleets. Usually 2 TS, a hammer or slamblasta, 2 squads of 2onslaught/1ravagers, 1 squad of 5 ravagers, and 5 brute rams at 1500.

Quote
Orks are twice as weak to ordnance as any other fleet in the game, and ordnance has proven to be the premier game winner, currently.  4+ armor coupled with ridiculously low turrets equals super dead ships.

Actually more than twice on their cruisers. This is a quirk of the ork fleet and its main weakness, which is why we see such high LB averages in an ork fleet compared to imperials (almost twice as many). I don't think this should change, but it would be nice to have perhaps some other solutions. I think this is the real killer for the KK, as an ork is so desperate to cram as many LBs in his fleet to save himself from bombers. Dropping the KK in cost... well trying to think about it from another standpoint, maybe not... but it would be nice to not feel somewhat hindered for taking one.

I honestly think it would be funny to make ork cruisers have d3 turrets (BB d3+1?), but this might tie up the game in more dice rolls. It would feel orky and give them a better resistance to ordinance.

Anyways thanks Nate+HA's, it's good to be heard out. You've kept the escorts with the current ork theme and are making them much more competitive. Without adding weird clunky mechanics.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #125 on: November 26, 2010, 07:23:07 AM »
Also as another note for why the onslaught should have more fp; swords can and often will turn abeam to enemies to fire, making them more survivable against enemy fire than the closing Onslaught (even with armor 6). LFR weapons batteries make this 5 total things that the sword has over the Onslaught. So the ship definitely needs an up in FP.

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #126 on: November 26, 2010, 07:54:33 AM »
Good point.

Dunno how this would be, but you could always say ork turrets are massively focuse on the rear of the ship, for some orky reason or another.
So bombers use side armor when rolling against.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #127 on: November 26, 2010, 08:34:22 AM »
Quote
Good point.

Dunno how this would be, but you could always say ork turrets are massively focuse on the rear of the ship, for some orky reason or another.
So bombers use side armor when rolling against.
javascript:void(0);

Another clunky rule-mechanic. From what I understand HA's are trying to avoid these as much as possible.

Nate, I know you think of the Onslaught having a lot of firepower, (or at least a chance for it), this is balanced out in squadrons. It is likely to roll consistent totals when rolling three dice.

For example with three dice the total rolled (and percentage chance)

3=.5%
4=1.4%
5= 2.8%
6=4.6%
7=7%
8=9.7%
9=11.6%
10=12.5%
11=12.5%
12=11.6%
13=9.7%
14=7%
15=4.6%
16=2.8%
17=1.4%
18=.5%

You see that the ships have a 70% chance of rolling between an 8 and 13, fairly consistent over 6 numbers. 50% of the time the ships firepower is worse than swords, 12.5% it is the same, and 38% of the time it is better. This is bad considering. It is more expressed in larger squadrons with more consistently less firepower.

With this we can determine how a squadron of 3 onslaughts compare to 3 swords.  Now with this we note that 38/50% as a determinate for firepower comparison. Actually dividing the 'equal' percentage in half is a bit of a better representation so 45/55%  Making it only have 81% the firepower capacity of the swords, close to the individual at 87%, but it appears as less in squadrons. I imagine this number will drop further with larger squads. With survivability, comparing them both in closing and abeam options we note that an onslaught has 2x survivability if both are facing forwards, and 2/3 from abeam. Comparing the two aspects, noting the general playstyle of each, then the sword will always face abeam when able, and the onslaught will always face forward.

This means that the Onslaught has only a 66% survivability compared to the sword overall in first strike scenarios. The sword closes with it's enemy, then turns abeam and fires, next turn it will turn again to face the enemy and fly between it's ranks to fire again, maintaining it's abeam status. Whereas the onslaught will perform no turns, and keep it's high-armor facing to the opponent.

Not to mention the fact that it is much less survivable against ordinance. Particularly bombers.

With a smaller turn the Onslaught is not likely to be able to turn and catch an enemy after they pass, as well as the fact that it doesn't have LFR batteries. This is fine and orky. It is slower as well.

This is the case for the Onslaught having +1 firepower, as I analyzed (technically my analysis said +2 at 35 points, but I'll take what I can get).

To make the fleet a more escort-heavy fleet you have to make the escorts at least nearly as appealing as they are in IN. With a weaker escort gunship, it will be looked over. I know its hard to compare two different fleets, but the mechanics are close.

The ravager is fine, torpedo boats always are well represented. The savage... at 30 points is close, I think I said that it would cost 27 points as compared to other ships, so close enough.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 09:23:10 AM by Plaxor »

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #128 on: November 27, 2010, 07:32:44 AM »
Hot off the debate about Orks:

- All other escort profiles perviously discussed (including new prices) remain unchanged
- Ork escorts can buy +1 turret for +5 points
- Ork kroozers can but +2 turrets for +20 points, as a one-off buy. This is as opposed to and distinct from saying they can buy up to 2 turrets for +10 points each.

Eldar are getting soem juice too, but you have to go here to read about it. We're really close to stapling shut the FAQ.

- Nate

Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #129 on: November 27, 2010, 12:17:15 PM »
Aw focus on eldar later :p
Who uses msm these days? ;)

Turrets is a big help, but I feel its doubly priced.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #130 on: November 27, 2010, 06:14:03 PM »
Hmmm... turret upgrades... Didn't see that coming. 20 points seems right for 2 turrets, but I don't know if I will ever buy it. Probably not on escorts. Does the whole squadron of escorts have to have the upgrade or just one or two?

 

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #131 on: November 27, 2010, 06:47:54 PM »
Escorts can upgrade for 5 points, once.  That is the correct cost of turrets.  A points premium of 20 on a fleet that desperately needs turrets only grows the ork problem.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #132 on: November 27, 2010, 07:17:43 PM »
I would've preferred d3 turrets for 10 points. I was asking if the whole squadron had to have the upgrade. I don't think that it extends the ork problem, any new thing will always help. It's just that the issue that you have to spend more points for it, where orks are underpowered  as is, so they should have a points drop or something... free?

However 3 turrets on a cruiser with 4+ armor is better than 2 on a cruiser with 5+ armor. You get much better resistance to ABs of course. As I calculated before an Ork Kroozer with 3 turrets takes about half the number of hits from bombers as a standard chaos/IN cruiser.

Orks are now the most resistant fleet to ordinance! HA!

I still hope that the onslaught is changed to D6+1, otherwise I'm rather happy about what happened.

Also I would like to see my LC put into play, but that's a bit to ask. I would like to build a fast assault-based ork fleet.

Something like:

Stompa x4 500
Kroolboy 270
Deathdeala 275
Warlord (on each) +1 shield, extra rr 180
6 Savage gunships 180

Hmmm... under-escorted....
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 07:26:39 PM by Plaxor »

Offline flybywire-E2C

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #133 on: November 27, 2010, 07:30:55 PM »
Escorts can upgrade for 5 points, once.  That is the correct cost of turrets.  A points premium of 20 on a fleet that desperately needs turrets only grows the ork problem.

What came up in play-testing is that in smaller games, Ork capital ships with better turrets really start to shine. This way in bigger battles they get what they need, but in smaller battles you have to think about whether or not its worth the cost.

To upgrade escorts is only +5 points each, but the whole squadron has to pay for it. Remember, we have to make rules for EVERYONE, not just the gentleman players. Having the squad pay for the upgrade prevents someone from paying +10 points for the squadron, then dropping one or two random Brutes on a massive ordy wave and saying, "uh, nope, THIS'S the one I paid for extra turrets, not that one."

- Nate

Check out the BFG repository page for all the documents we have in work:
http://tinyurl.com/23nul8q
:) Smile, game on and enjoy!           - Nate

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Orkz - gib uz a brik
« Reply #134 on: November 27, 2010, 08:07:35 PM »
But Nate, Orks DIE to ordnance, they die so hard.  4+ armor makes you die to ordnance, 50% of normal races turrets just makes you want to cry at how sad it is.  On a race that should have bristling guns no less  ???

+2 turrets really helps alot, but 20 point increase on a kill kroozer brings it to points levels where it just isn't in the same league as other ships.