Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[BaronIveagh]

A fleet is a team, an SC alone might have the problems BI says, but two of them will be much stonger.  The rule of squares and all that remember.

True, but, as in the battle report I gave, a combination of escorts and a single cruiser ground 3 scs to paste, crippled two more that disengaged, and the sixth disengaged.  For a loss of 5 escorts and and the cruiser taking a single hit.  Admittedly, the cruiser was a gothic, and SC (3) was lost due to an unlucky roll, but still it was rather one sided.  I just focus fired the entire fleet on one SC at a time.  The str 2 shields lasted a bit longer, but the problem was that the SCs could not make enough kills per turn to stem the tide.

Horizon: actually a single lance can, but only against necrons, eldar, and nids.

[lastspartacus]

As far as mega-armor nobs go, I'd just include them in the explanation of the warlord as part of the reason you double the boarding value.

[horizon]

Hello BaronI,
we mean : a Space Marine team fleet: barges, strike cruisers, escorts working together.
Not 6 strike cruisers and otherwise nothing.

Against those ships you mention the T-Hawk still has a better chance.
(vs Eldar 3+ T Hawk.  2+ Holo   or   4+ lance // 2+ holo).
Nids, kraken. Same.
Necron. Same.

So yes the lance could kill it in 1 shot but the THawks can still do it as well.
(Same like 3BC + 4wb  or 8BC could do it as well).

[BaronIveagh]

Hello BaronI,
we mean : a Space Marine team fleet: barges, strike cruisers, escorts working together.
Not 6 strike cruisers and otherwise nothing.

Against those ships you mention the T-Hawk still has a better chance.
(vs Eldar 3+ T Hawk.  2+ Holo   or   4+ lance // 2+ holo).
Nids, kraken. Same.
Necron. Same.

So yes the lance could kill it in 1 shot but the THawks can still do it as well.
(Same like 3BC + 4wb  or 8BC could do it as well).

It'd have to be just escorts and the SC then.  A BB takes too many points 1k or below since you can only take 2 sc and 1 nova squadron, or three nova squadrons.  Against the five squadrons of 4 escorts IN can take (or seven of 3), either of those options can get peeled apart pretty quick unless the SM player spends the whole time matching speed with the BB.  The first ship or squadron that breaks formation will probably get primaried in to little pieces, so going AAF is a mistake. 

It'd end up being a long dance where both sides wait for the other to screw up and then pounce or drive them against a wall.  The escorts will be slightly more forgiving of a mistake, the SM less so, due to the fact that losing the SCs or an SC and the novas, will leave the BB naked. 

3 Escorts and 3 SCs could, in theory, go toe to toe with a gothic and 5 squadrons of escorts, but it would be a very nasty brawl and probably decided more by luck then skill.

[horizon]

So what's the problem? A crawl is good? And if the IN manages a 60-40 win it is fine as well fluffwise.

[Dark Depths]

Seems ok to me to be honest.  The IN should be easier to play vs. SM.  Its still possible to win under your scenario.  Therefore, the SC is ok for what it is supposed to be able to do. 

And i'm surprised you lost that conclusively.  Maybe play the game again a few times and see what the average result is?

[BaronIveagh]

Seems ok to me to be honest.  The IN should be easier to play vs. SM.  Its still possible to win under your scenario.  Therefore, the SC is ok for what it is supposed to be able to do. 

And i'm surprised you lost that conclusively.  Maybe play the game again a few times and see what the average result is?

Actually I played the IN, since I didn't want people claiming I threw the game to make a point.  I was surprised too.  I had figured a more marginal win, since I had not played the new aboat rules before.  Screening the firestorms with swords prooved effective, along with massing turret fire from four escorts per squadron rather then three (which, to my amusement, Horizon claims is 'weird') since then they either have to combine into 3 squadron waves or just get cut to ribbons. 

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Actually I played the IN, since I didn't want people claiming I threw the game to make a point.

Play the SM fleet and poist your battle report. We will know if you threw the game or not.

[horizon]

Screening the firestorms with swords prooved effective, along with massing turret fire from four escorts per squadron rather then three (which, to my amusement, Horizon claims is 'weird') since then they either have to combine into 3 squadron waves or just get cut to ribbons. 

Read the vps rules for escorts ==> it is better to have uneven numbers in escort squadrons.
So either 3 or 5.

[Sigoroth]

Wrong: 50% of the aboats, on average will get through.  that's 50%.  Of those that get through 66% will hit.  That's 33%.  Of those, 50% will be stopped by the brace. So only 16% will hit.

Wrong. Learn to math dude. I'll give you a chance to correct your own mistake before shooting you down.

And, you will never roll 2 bc and 1 wb, as 4 and 3 are more or less identical against escorts on the gunnery table.  So it's either 2 and 2 or 1 and 1.  With the lance you can roll 2 and 1.

3 BC vs closing escort = 2 dice, placing a BM. 4WB vs closing escort with BM = 1 dice.

If you cannot beat escorts with that you are : a weak tactical player.
Seriously BaronI : I mean this.

I'm not going to comment on this statement. 

Even though it's true? With torps, THs, TH-As, TP attacks and BCs you can't win against escorts? You need lances too?

[Dark Depths]

Actually I played the IN, since I didn't want people claiming I threw the game to make a point.

Play the SM fleet and poist your battle report. We will know if you threw the game or not.

I'm sure that BI did not throw the game, and I wouldn't want to insinuate that he did.  But, poor die rolling, bad hair day, whatever; any playtesting scenario needs to be played several times for one to come up with a conclusive answer.  Plus you should play both sides to see whether it was just a player thing.

Why should escorts be in odd numbered squadrons?  Obviously you should have 3+ in a sqd., but why odd numbers?  I re-read the rules but I still don't get why odd numbers help?

My main issue is that I don't see how lances would have significanty changed the outcome, if the SM's lost so badly?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

That is what we have been telling him.

[horizon]

Why should escorts be in odd numbered squadrons?  Obviously you should have 3+ in a sqd., but why odd numbers?  I re-read the rules but I still don't get why odd numbers help?

Hi,
for the sake of victory points.

An escort squadron below half strength counts as cripplec (25%) for victory point purposes.

2str squadron -> 1 destroyed = crippled
3str squadron -> 2 destroyed = crippled
4str squadron -> 2 destroyed = crippled
5str squadron -> 3 destroyed = crippled
6str squadron -> 3 destroyed = crippled

Asume Firestorms = 40pts per ship.
A squadron of 3 = 120pts
A squadron of 4 = 160pts

If you destroy 2 of the "3" squad you will gain : 30vps
If you destroy 2 of the "4" squad you will gain : 40vps

A squadron of 5 = 200pts
A squadron of 6 = 240pts

If you destroy 3 of the "5" squad you will gain : 50vps
If you destroy 3 of the "6" squad you will gain : 60vps

So if you disengage at the right moment (before all escorts are gone) or manage to keep it alive a squadron of 3 & 5 will have given away less vps then squadrons of 4 & 6.

Then the remaining thing is: squads of 3 gives you more "objects" in your fleet, thus more targets for your opponent to choose = harder for opponent to surpress all objects in your fleet (eg outnumbering).


Clear?

[Sigoroth]

Horizon is completely correct. There is also another aspect that he has omitted. Special orders that halve your firepower (BFI, AAF, CTNH). Since you round up when you halve firepower it is beneficial to have odd squadron sizes. Compare 3 squads of 4 vs 4 squads of 3. When you brace 3 Firestorms you lose 1 lance and 3 WBs. So if you did this 4 times you'd lose 4 lances and 12 WBs. When you brace 4 Firestorms you lose 2 lances 4 WBs. Do this 3 times and you lose 6 lances 12 WBs. Therefore you lose less firepower in the smaller squadrons. This is on top of the fact that you'll likely not be forced to brace all squadrons, in which case bracing smaller ones is just a flat reduction in loss of firepower, without even considering the rounding effect.

In short, always run odd numbered escort squadrons. 3 is best I find, 5 in a pinch.

[Dark Depths]

Ah, thanks.  That does make sense, I was thinking about it the wrong way.