Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[BaronIveagh]

Bearing in mind they already have 90degree turns, they should be ok versus escorts.  I think LFR is just too flexible.  At least just firing forward we can argue they are designed for raiding and pinpoint plenet bombrdments, rather than fleet action.

I tried that: fixed forward it's even more vulnerable against escorts, since in no firing angle can you ever roll more then 2 dice against them, which means that you only ever get a hit 25% of the time forward and a broadside shot actually becomes impossible due to the gunnery table.  Everyone seems to forget that, while it has a 90 degree turn, it still has to travel 10 cm forward unless on SO.

For some reason, people seem to assume that escorts having a 90 degree turn and SC having a 90 degree turn is the same, when in reality the escorts will always dictate the combat angle.

[Dark Depths]

I'm in two minds.  I see what you're saying, and having done the maths for myself I do accept what you're saying.  But making it LFR also makes it proportionately better vs. capital ships, which is one of the main issues with having an SM lance in the first place.  But, saying that, its also quite rare at 1 per 1000, so actually, LFR is ok to me, just about.  I'm not 100% happy, but then again, its all about compromise, so i'll say its ok.  Maybe consider +10 pts if its LFR too?

So, now that we have a proposed, concrete idea, can we get people opinions please?

[BaronIveagh]

I'm in two minds.  I see what you're saying, and having done the maths for myself I do accept what you're saying.  But making it LFR also makes it proportionately better vs. capital ships, which is one of the main issues with having an SM lance in the first place.  But, saying that, its also quite rare at 1 per 1000, so actually, LFR is ok to me, just about.  I'm not 100% happy, but then again, its all about compromise, so i'll say its ok.  Maybe consider +10 pts if its LFR too?

So, now that we have a proposed, concrete idea, can we get people opinions please?

Sounds good to me.  This makes it rare but not uselessly unbalanced.

[horizon]

...and I still think it is weird.


a) Space Marins do not need lances on strike cruisers to fight escorts.
a1) I may put forth you change your tactics to accomodate.


b) If you think lances are needed (noodles) then will one Strike Cruiser with lances in 1000pts make a difference?
b1) of course not. The reason to have lances because they need to fight escorts = daftness.

[lastspartacus]

I think BC are awesome.  I've said from the beginning its all about flavor for me.  I in no way want lances to fill marine weaknesses.  If you want lances in numbers, take novas or armageddon list.  And I know str2 l/r/f lances are equal to str3 l/r/f BC, and 1 per 1k points should severely limit any worries of lance spam.  I just figured it would be too much for the opposition, and I figured forward fire would let you take str2 lances on a couple SC and keep both sides relatively happy.

[BaronIveagh]

...and I still think it is weird.


a) Space Marins do not need lances on strike cruisers to fight escorts.
a1) I may put forth you change your tactics to accomodate.


b) If you think lances are needed (noodles) then will one Strike Cruiser with lances in 1000pts make a difference?
b1) of course not. The reason to have lances because they need to fight escorts = daftness.

Horizon, I'd personally prefer 1 per 500, but I understand people's concerns with super marine lance spam.  Though how it could be done better with SC then Nova's isn't clear to me, and so a compromise where A) the lance option is actually RARE, as opposed to brokenly expensive and useless, and helps ease escort pressure tactics against the newly nerfed SC,  B) super lance massive mega munchkins can't really use it for beam spam, and C) Does not penalize the player for taking an option that fits their chapter's fluff.

[horizon]

Nerved Strike cruisers: ahahaha.

What world do you live in Baron?
Seriously.

Draft 2010:
I can take +1 shield = better protection vs enemy (escorts).
I can take variants with str 8 Bombardment.....
or just keep the str2 thawks w 3bc
or add torps.
Add in my teleport bonus, boarding bonus, high turn rate, high speed, highest leadership
Add very fast escorts to the fleet.
Add a good barge as well.

If you cannot beat escorts with that you are : a weak tactical player.
Seriously BaronI : I mean this.

T-Hawks are still 3+ vs escorts.
1 T-Hawk can kill an escort
1 Lance cannot
1 Teleport attack can kill an escort
1 Lance cannot
1 torpedo attack can kill an escort
1 Lance cannot

[Plaxor]

Baron, I think you're a decent guy, and in a way I agree with you.

If lances are included in SMs they should be close to balanced as far as real cost. They should pay a premium for them, because it's unfluffy to have them, but it shouldn't be something where one is shooting themselves in the foot to get it.

So to me it would look like this if lances were included: 2@30cm for +10 points (most people agree that 2@30 free swap is a loss of fp, so this only increases that by a little) Or 1@30cm for free (this is definitely a loss of firepower by any standards)

People don't generally take uncompetitive things very often. Look at 40k, and how marine players usually run what is best rather than fluffy (at least in my area), as in 'no my ultramarines are secret blood angels/spacewolves/soontobegreyknights'

Or Guard players, and how they don't run some units that really aren't bad, like the primaris psyker, because something is slightly better.

In my Ork fleet revision thread my thoughts on the 'Extra Powerfields' upgrade is that it is pretty much worthless not on a BB/BC, where having 3 shields is better than 2 on the most important ship in your fleet. However on a Cruiser? Not worth 25 points, and I don't know any Ork player who does it. (deadshane mentioned it only being occasionally useful on a terror ship if he had the warlord there.)

In my study of 126 ork fleets (which I really should dig out for more info) powerfields were used 42% of the time. 87% of the times that they were used it was on a large vessel (BB/BC). However this was more than any other upgrade, and is an interesting note. All the other warboss upgrades are either massively overcosted, (Mad meks!) or are not that useful on a ship that doubles its BV (Mega-Armored Nobs)

Although things are often overpriced, if they fill some hole in a fleet people will pay the extra points for them. And the whole paper I wrote last month on research done behind Ork fleets is actually a decent study into how people purchase upgrades/ships/whatnot according to relative cost. As well as how internet psychology on certain items influence what people purchase in BFG (as usually people come to a forum to ask what they should buy.)

That said, SM fleets don't have any need for lances, it doesn't fill a hole like Powerfields do in Orks, and therefore even the slightest overcostedness will push it to maybe.... 15-20% of lists, from those people who just hate the fp table or have some sort of lance-love or want a ship that's unique in their Imperial Fists fleet or whatnot.

[Zelnik]

Guys. I love that we can debate this point until we scream ourselves hoarse, but it's a moot point now. The rules for space marines are finalized, and are not likely to be updated for a long time to come. The first thing that is going to test these rules are the new forgeworld crack that appears out of IA10 this month (I am expecting an escort with six bombardment cannons and an Armageddon gun)

Needless to say, so long as the IA10 cheese doesn't ruin the current list, nothing will change for years to come. There is really no point on complaining or arguing aside from the desire to feel better then someone else.

[Dark Depths]

@Zelnik.  Yes, you are quite right that the final draft has been approved, so it is a moot point, from an official standpoint.  But from the POV of creating house rules, debating this issue is useful as it makes any house rules we do come up with that much more likely to be viable.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Instead of +5 points, my proposal was 1 per 1k points, str3 BC trades for str2 lances, but front fire only, not l/r/f like the BC.

For use against escorts though it'd have to be l/f/r.  Front mount it'd nerf it too far to be used effectively against escorts again. 

So, yes, I agree to 1 per 1k at str 2 l/f/r for +5 points.

You wish.

[Sigoroth]

I dont see why anyone would need help beating escorts, especially not a fleet with abounding assault boats with a 16% better chance of causing murder. Once we see escorts taken in large numbers (outside of CE) and those lists having better than average win ratios, then it would be a problem.

Actually, the odds of a 4 aboat wing getting a kill on a 3 ship squadron (assuming the escort has 2 turrets) now is 16%.  The odds of one wb and a str 2 lance is about 25%.

What? Where the hell do you come up with this? The odds of a wave of 4 A-boats destroying a braced escort with 2 turrets and 2 more massed turrets is now 41.38%. For SMs this is 51.77%. Where the hell do you come up with 16%?

The odds of a single WB dice (at 5+ armour) and 2 lance dice destroying a 1 shield braced escort is 22.92%. Mind you, this is identical to what 1 WB dice and 2 BC dice would give you.

[BaronIveagh]

I dont see why anyone would need help beating escorts, especially not a fleet with abounding assault boats with a 16% better chance of causing murder. Once we see escorts taken in large numbers (outside of CE) and those lists having better than average win ratios, then it would be a problem.

Actually, the odds of a 4 aboat wing getting a kill on a 3 ship squadron (assuming the escort has 2 turrets) now is 16%.  The odds of one wb and a str 2 lance is about 25%.

What? Where the hell do you come up with this? The odds of a wave of 4 A-boats destroying a braced escort with 2 turrets and 2 more massed turrets is now 41.38%. For SMs this is 51.77%. Where the hell do you come up with 16%?

The odds of a single WB dice (at 5+ armour) and 2 lance dice destroying a 1 shield braced escort is 22.92%. Mind you, this is identical to what 1 WB dice and 2 BC dice would give you.

Wrong: 50% of the aboats, on average will get through.  that's 50%.  Of those that get through 66% will hit.  That's 33%.  Of those, 50% will be stopped by the brace. So only 16% will hit.

And, you will never roll 2 bc and 1 wb, as 4 and 3 are more or less identical against escorts on the gunnery table.  So it's either 2 and 2 or 1 and 1.  With the lance you can roll 2 and 1.

Nerved Strike cruisers: ahahaha.

What world do you live in Baron?
Seriously.

Draft 2010:
I can take +1 shield = better protection vs enemy (escorts).

I didn't say that they hadn't improved defensively.  In fact, in my little experiment, the 2 shielded SCs mostly lasted twice as long as the 1 shielded. 

1 T-Hawk can kill an escort 
1 Lance cannot

The odds of 1 thawk even killing a single 2 turret escort is about 8%

1 Teleport attack can kill an escort
1 Lance cannot

Sure, you can teleport if you aren't on SO and their shields are down.  Against as single escort, it's quite doable.  Against a squadron, less so, particularly against a lance squadron, as you're going to spend time braced or lose the SC.

1 torpedo attack can kill an escort
1 Lance cannot

33% of the time, though in reality much less, as 33% assumes that it impacts on the turn you launch and that you have not paid for guided torps.  Beyond that range, against escorts it goes into the toilet.

If you cannot beat escorts with that you are : a weak tactical player.
Seriously BaronI : I mean this.

I'm not going to comment on this statement. 

[horizon]

lol,

Regardless of %: 1 T hawk can kill an escort. 1 Lance cannot, (Lance chance is 0%).

You are grasping the need of lances because T-Hawks went from auto killers (vs escorts) to 3+ killers.

You can drop 1 shield on a squadroned escort and make that teleport attack. The BC variant is very good for this as it doesn't need to reload THawks.
I find it hard to believe you have such a hard time downing shields. ((again --> escorts in the marine fleet!). Marine escorts can easily hunt enemy escorts if your cruisers see juicier targets.

It seems as you are only thinking Strike Cruiser vs Escorts and have a mindset escorts are unbeatable by Strike Cruisers. This is odd.

4 Firestorms = 8 wb + 4lances prow on = hurtable to a 2shld Strike Cruiser. But not killing in one turn. Not even crippling in 2.

[Dark Depths]

A fleet is a team, an SC alone might have the problems BI says, but two of them will be much stonger.  The rule of squares and all that remember.