Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[BaronIveagh]

Theres no uproar, I would never use these rules if they existed.  The simple point is that your current rules are not needed.  Heavily restrict the amount of the SC with lances, and you have your rarity, with zero worries of imbalance.  How does that not work?  I ended up arguing over the unfounded arguments that SC shouldn't have lances, but now I see you agree with us on the fluff side of it, the real meat of it is that 20 points is not the way to go man!  

I agree, the rules as written don't make them rare, they make them useless.  You can still take just as many of them, it just makes it less appealing to do so.  

Baron, drop it. your not getting what you want. the space marine segment was finalized, the door is closed. Do not waste your time.

If that's the case, I will enjoy watching SM fleets not based on Novas or SO slide below Dark Eldar in the tournament standings.

However, given how much bitching has been going on about SO, I would suggest that one more re-write is probably in the works or we'll end up with a NetEpic/Epic scenario.  So fr just about anyone who's playtested it has deemed it imbalanced.  Heck, in my own it easily eliminated an Apoc in just two turns of shooting.

[lastspartacus]

Whats netepic?  I always wanted to get into epic, just didnt know if it was good or not.

My standing is that this has kind of become an ego war.  I think its ridiculous to say a few lances on one SC out of a few is imabalanced in a fleet that already has access to cheaper lances. 

At the same time, I also don't think the marines will be hurt at all if the option didn't exist.  All I'm arguing right now is this silly 20 point thing.  Silly!
Balance by limitation, not balance by points imbalance.

[BaronIveagh]

Whats netepic?  I always wanted to get into epic, just didnt know if it was good or not.

My standing is that this has kind of become an ego war.  I think its ridiculous to say a few lances on one SC out of a few is imabalanced in a fleet that already has access to cheaper lances. 

At the same time, I also don't think the marines will be hurt at all if the option didn't exist.  All I'm arguing right now is this silly 20 point thing.  Silly!
Balance by limitation, not balance by points imbalance.

Once upon a time, the Epic community split over changes to the game.  One plays the GW endorsed ruleset and one plays the NetEpic ruleset based off IIRC Epic 3rd ed. 

Epic has been largely dead ever since, though some people still play it, I haven't really seen it at events like Gencon for some time.

[Vaaish]

Reports of epic's death are greatly exaggerated. Netepic is the updated space marine (2nd edition) ruleset that was created when Epic 40,000 came out and basically created a very abstract and streamlined game that chucked most of what made Space Marine an interesting game although there was tons of variety with the model lines. If it's any indication of how badly things went with epic40k, support only lasted around 6 months. Following epic 40k, Epic Armageddon came out which fixed many of the problems with Epic40k and remains as the active Epic rules. Most people I know now play both netepic and Epic armageddon.

Over in the UK there is a regular tournament circuit for Epic:A and I see a few here and there in the US. IIRC there's one coming up at adepticon this year.

[lastspartacus]

So I take it Epic:A is the best game.

[BaronIveagh]

So I take it Epic:A is the best game.

That's an item of preference.  Some like one, some like the other.  Epic: A is the 'official' game.

[horizon]

Dark Eldar already come above Space Marines.....and all others....

Dark Eldar won Adapticon 2010. (Maaksel played them).

[BaronIveagh]

Dark Eldar already come above Space Marines.....and all others....

Dark Eldar won Adapticon 2010. (Maaksel played them).

Was not aware of that, Last I had heard, Tau were on top and DE were near the bottom.

[horizon]

Winners from latest to oldest :

Dark Eldar
Tau ECF (Armada)
Tau ECF (Armada
Orks (Deadshane's Terror Gallore)
Orks (Deadshane's Terror Gallore)

Funny isn't it? How Both DE & Orks, generally seen as weak fleets score good if you take a certain kind of fleet.

Orks => Terrorz
Dark Eldar =>

Maaksel @ dakkadakka:

I believe my fleet for that tournament was:

Dark Archon, 2 rerolls
Torture - Bays
Torture - Bays
Torture - Bays

3 Escorts - Assault Module
3 Escorts - Assault Modules
3 Escorts - Lance
3 Escorts - Lance

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/329780.page#2172347


Deadshane is going to take Chaos next time he is going. His fleet ain't much of a secret:
Desolator, 2x Acheron, 2x Devestation, 2x Carnage.



Back to Marines:
BaronI, why do you see Marines slipping "lower" or downhill without SO or Nova's?

Per draft 2010 they gained the following:

* extra shield option (=> big improvement!).
* vbb's
* Thunderhawk Bombers (=> extra improvement => resilient fighter-bombers in addition to resilient assault boats).
* A Heavy Bombardment Cannon SC variant
* A Torpedo option on SC (to overwhelm turrets).
* Per FAQ2010: BC improvement due simultaneous firing.

I mean, I only see improvements. You?

[Plaxor]

That's because Ork Fighta-Bommaz according to FAQ 2007 were much better than standard bombers. Now they are about 80% as effective (about where they should be). I don't think that we'll be seeing any more Orks winning adepticon.

It goes to say that the winner of Adepticon tends to have an ordinance heavy list.

[BaronIveagh]

Note: it's late and I'm tired, so this isn't well written.

IN:  Myself
Experience: Moderate with IN
Gold - Swords (4)
Sword -Swords (4)
Juno - Swords (4)
Utah -firestorms (4)
Omaha - firestorms (4)
‘Saint Lo’ – Gothic (FA, RS)

SM: Jimmerson
Experience: Some but not with SM

SCs
1 (+1 s)
2 (+1s)
3 (+1s)
4 (+1s)
5 (+1s)
6

Starting distance:  60cm

Formation: 
IN: Eschelon, Gothic center with gold and sword squadrons flanking, Juno leading, Utah and Omaha trailing.
SM: line abeam, SC 6 on far left flank.
IN Turn 1 (Imp):  AAF:  Juno (28cm to contact) Saint Lo (30cm to contact) Gold (31 cm to contact) Sword (28cm to contact) Utah (35 cm to contact) Omaha (31 cm to contact)

SM turn 1: turn 45 degrees and move into line astern, bringing 1 into range Sword and one into range of Juno.  Squadron Juno successfully braces, Squadron Sword does not, however, they only score a single hit against squadron Sword, due to some measuring and determining that the member of Sword in range is actually abeam.

SCs launch thawks in 3 waves of 4 which close on IN to a range of 10, 15, and 10 respectively.

IN Turn 2: Sword squadron turns and avoids the nearest Thawk squadron to engage hindmost SC (6), while Juno, Gold and Utah maunver to fire on thawks.  Omaha and Saint Lo move to follow up Swords attack on SC (6).
Juno, Gold, Omaha and Utah use weapon batteries to eliminate all three waves of Thawks.  SC 6 BFIs, however it still ends up taking 2 hits from Sword (one negated by shield), and 5 from the Saint Lo, and both Utah and Omaha Squadron.

SM Turn 2: SC (5 )burns retros to turn in place, aligning with Utah Squadron.  SCs (1-4) Move 10 cm and turn, going abeam of In fleet. (1, 3, and 4 reload ord, 2 fails its check)  SCs (1,2,4) fire is ineffectual as they are firing abeam at Escorts outside of 15cm, though Gold Squadron braces under fire from 2 and 4, they end up taking only 2 hits (one is negated).  SC (3) is inside 15 of Utah Squadron and forces Utah Squadron to brace, and inflicts 3 hits, destroying one firestorm.  SC 5 fires on Sword squadron, inflicting one hit. 

SC launch thawks.  Thawks from SCs (3) and (4) successfully eliminate another firestorm from Utah Squadron.  Thawks from SC (5) are killed by turret fire when they contact Sword squadron. (Came into Base contact on its way to Utah Squadron) and Thawks from (1) are killed by turrets from Gold Squadron

IN Turn 3:
Sword squadron moves aft of SC 5 while Juno moves to screen Utah.  Omaha, Utah and Gold shift aim to SC 3 while Saint Lo moves to follow Sword Squadron, presenting its lances to SC (5).  Juno, Saint Lo and Sword squadron fire on SC (5).  SC (5) braces and takes 3 damage (5 hits, 2 negated by shield).   SC 3 fails to brace and takes 5 damage (7 hits 2 negated by shield)

SM Turn 3:
SC (3) rams Omaha Squadron, destroying one firestorm, however it also ended up taking a point of damage itself.  SC (2 and 4) come into base to base contact with Gold and Juno, respectively and reload ord.
SC  (5) tries to turn and get free of Sword Squadron and moves to consolidate with  SC (1, 2, 4).  SC (1) moves to fire on Omaha Squadron and reloads ord.
SC (2) and 4 fire on each other’s targets.  SC (4) gets 3 damage on Gold Squadron, which destroys one sword.  SC (2) gets one hit on Juno, negated by shields.  SC (5) takes a parting shot at Sword Squadron which does nothing, and fires its opposite broadside at Juno squadron, which does nothing. 
SC 1 locks on and fires at Omaha Squadron but only scores 1 hit.
SCs (1) and (4) launch Thawks, (4)’s immediately coming into contact with one of the two remaining firestorms of Utah squadron, and is removed by turrets. 
(1)’s Thawks hit, but Omaha Squadron bfi’s and makes their save. 
SC (4) boards Juno Squadron (tie) SC(2) Boards Gold Squadron (SM win) and eliminates one sword.

IN Turn 4:
Saint Lo AFFs and rams SC (5) [braces] dealing it 2 unsaved hits +1 automatic from the ramspike, and takes one damage in return before coming to a halt slightly aft of SC (2).   Remnants of Gold turn and go aft of SC (2). Juno goes aft of SC (4) and turns, crossing the T.  Omaha turns toward SC (2) Sword moves aft of SC (4) and Locks on.   Remnants of Utah move on SC (2) and lock on.
SC (4) braces and takes 1 hit (2 stopped by shields, one saved against.)
SC (2) takes fire from Utah Squadron and braces, taking 1 hits from Utah, 1 hit from Omaha, 1 hit from Gold and two hits from the Saint Lo and a fire critical.
SC (2) puts fire out at end of turn.

SM turn 4:
SC (4) moves and turns abeam of Sword and Juno.   SC (1) moves forward and locks on to Omaha Squadron.  SC (2) disengages.
SC (1) fires on Omaha Squadron, which fails to brace and takes 2 damage, eliminating one firestorm.
SC (4) fires at Utah Squadron to no effect.

IN turn 5:
Saint Lo comes to new heading pointing at SC (1), Sword and Juno turn toward SC (1), Utah locks on to SC (1) Omaha comes to new heading to orient toward SC(1). Gold turns abeam of SC (1)
SC(1) braces taking fire from all the above but the Saint Lo, taking 3 unsaved hits past shields.
Saint Lo launches torpedoes.
Torps inflict 1 unsaved hit

SM turn 5: SC (1) disengages, SC (4) disengages.

Totals:
SM
3 SC hulked: 240pts
2 crippled and disengaged: 80pts
1 disengaged: 16pts

IN
2 swords:  35pts
4 firestorms: 80pts

So, 130 points of frigs were lost, though when I asked why he had burned retros with SC(5), his response was that he was going to go for a ram and board against both firestorm squadrons but I forced him to brace SC (5) with the Gothic. 

[horizon]

Heya,

Your IN fleet is weird --> better to have squadrons of 3.
Marine fleet --> needs escorts (Hunter/Gladii)

Turn 1: Marine should have kept str 2 waves tHawks at all times.

Why did he ram in turn 3?? Where all the teleport attacks? Where are the boarding actions vs escorts?

I think his lack in experience is what killed him.

Strike Cruiser Ram & Board --> poor idea.
* To ram you need to AAF. When ramming AAF move needs to be done completely!
So getting into base to base contact with AAF = impossible unless an exact dice roll is done of 4d6.... as said: nonsense !

[Sigoroth]

Right, no word either way.  But based on some reasonable thoughts, its not a stretch.  There is definitly none of your 'no not ever' talk.
  The nova actually disproves many of your thoughts.
I want a limited amount of something marines could have, for players who want it.  What in the nova entry is clear?  It basically makes the Imperium nervous.  And its a dedicated gunboat, which a lance bearing SC wouldnt be.  Quote me something, there aint nothin there that doesnt lend weight to the lance-on-SC argument.  Tell me Horizon, why would the Imperium take more exception to an SC with a couple lances than a dedicated lance escort?

No, you're right, it's not a stretch for the SMs to have lances, it's a BREAK!!! They should NEVER have lances. There is no fluff that would both allow this and match up with the pre-established 40k universe.

Now let me get something clear, the IN's opposition to the Nova is not because it's a gunboat, it is because it has a lance. The IN have no problems with the Gladius. This is a pure gunboat. The only difference between it and the Nova is the lance. This is what they are so annoyed with.

Regarding the THs and the SDMs, the THs have a 25cm movement. There is no avoiding them no matter how you turn. Park 41cm away, your shot, you turn then move then they move 25cm towards you. My turn they catch you, you're dead.

[BaronIveagh]

Heya,

Your IN fleet is weird --> better to have squadrons of 3.
Marine fleet --> needs escorts (Hunter/Gladii)

Turn 1: Marine should have kept str 2 waves tHawks at all times.

Why did he ram in turn 3?? Where all the teleport attacks? Where are the boarding actions vs escorts?

I think his lack in experience is what killed him.

Strike Cruiser Ram & Board --> poor idea.
* To ram you need to AAF. When ramming AAF move needs to be done completely!
So getting into base to base contact with AAF = impossible unless an exact dice roll is done of 4d6.... as said: nonsense !

My IN had 4 so I could mass 5.  That's why he went for more powerful waves instead of str 2s.  

This was meant as a control to show the difference when tomarrow we do it with the str 2 lance swap. To do the max amount of minmaxing with SC lances, we needed 6 SCs. 

Why he rammed on turn 3 I asked too.  His reasoning why he went ahead and did it, even though SC (5) was braced was the firestorm has 1 hp, so with armor 6, the odds of him having taken that point of damage were low.  His plan was to kill the firestorm, pass through, since I was unlikely to divide my forces to chase him and then disengage.

Because a ship on special orders cannot teleport attack?  I didn't notice any point where a shield was down, he was within 10cm, and not on a special order already.  

On Turn 3, given the angles, he might have thought he could come into contact with the opposite squadron with SC (5) (passing through Utah into base contact with Omaha) but I'm guessing.

Now let me get something clear, the IN's opposition to the Nova is not because it's a gunboat, it is because it has a lance. The IN have no problems with the Gladius. This is a pure gunboat. The only difference between it and the Nova is the lance. This is what they are so annoyed with.

Um, Sigoroth, I might point out the ban is on gunboats.  The book says it over and over again.  Far more then it mentions lances.

[Zelnik]

Sigoroth is right, they were allowed only escorts to be true warships, read their intro section again, Baron.