Even if it were flavor, as you pointed out, IN don't like lances in SM fleets and grudgingly accept the ones on escorts which they prefer to keep that way. To make BCs work well, the SM needs to have the target in the Closing or Moving Away profile. So it makes things harder to use while still retaining the deadliness. That's something IN can live with as going abeam would help minimize the threat. So whether game play or fluff, there is still no need or requirement in flavor for it.
I think he was talking about people's own custom chapters. It's a common thing in this game we call Warhammer 40k that we seem to get a lot of new players crossing over from. They have this funny idea from all those rulebooks, BL novels, audio books, comics, and video games printed
after Armada that Space Marine ships have lances.
I again notice how you do not talk about BC's ridiculous deadliness against ships, far above what lances are. I have a hard time swollowing that the IN are opposed to weapons that burn neat holes in ships in favor of weapons that gut them from end to end, with, in all but the more extreme circumstances, exactly the same accuracy against ships.
'Admiral, we're here at the Aberdeen System to test out weapons on ships. For our target we have an old Dauntless that's been decommissioned. Let's start with a lance. *lance burns hole in dauntless for two damage.* Now for this bombardment cannon! *Dauntless explodes into debris as the hull is breached and internal bulkheads collapse*
'Now, Admiral, aren't we so much safer since that bombardment cannon is so much weaker then the lance?'
Yes. Why? Because you already pointed out, BCs can be better than lances. So why would SM have to get the lance? It's already enough that SM get the BCs. It is just trickier but no less deadly in the right circumstances especially now that the BM problem looks like it will get resolved the way it is. It works with the fluff while giving SM a chance to win fleet action. In your proposal 2 lances in 750 points in a fleet where it can take 145 point 6+ armor, 25 cm speed, 90' turn SCs are significant. In 1500 point matches, That's 4 lances supported by BCs and WBs and lances on Novas if the player wanted to include escorts. That's a serious threat to IN. It is NOT pointless. That is the point. It's not weaker since it makes things easier for SM. A ship targeted by WBs, BCs and lances would be neutralized and unless a fleet brings lots of lances, the opposing fleet would have a hard time striking back. You almost always have to compare every race to IN which is one of the more basic races. Adding lances to the SM even in limited amounts would tilt things to SM significantly.
Yes, a battleship would be neutralized by being hit by an entire 1500 point SM fleet. How unlike now where they're simply neutralized by a str 20 BC hit from a single 450 point ship! And, my god, they would have to bring lots of lances, something MOST OF THEM DO ANYWAY (Unless you think the Lunar and Gothic are uncommon ships in IN fleets).
How are you getting 13 dice? You're only getting 2 dice per SDM. So with 3 SDMs, you're getting 6 dice total. Odds are good you will roll sixes yes but that's hitting 1 wave out of 2 or 3. The other wave(s) then gets in and attacks your ships since you can't fire back at them anymore with your WBs and are now relying on your turrets.
Because I'm firing three squadrons at the waves rather then the SDMs individually. Str 24 wb becomes str 5, str 16 becomes 3 assuming no left shift. When you say waves I assume that means you're combining six squadrons into two waves. Under the new FAQ I only have to roll one six to eliminate the entire wave rather then reduce it's str by 1.
See? I'm not the only fallible one. you make mistakes too.
It's not hitting the THs in the right arc. It's getting all 2 or 3 waves. You won't be able to get the other waves once you finish firing against 1 wave since you can only fire your WBs once per Shooting phase. You can split the WB fire sure. Means rolling lower dice against each wave you target.
However, I'm still combining WBs from three squadrons. So I can target 3 waves individually.
Even against 3 slow moving herds, you will still have a hard time cornering them all. 3 SCs at 485 points vs 8 SDMs at 480. You divide that into 3 and guess what? I now send my THs against the one with 2 SDMs. I just keep whittling away with my THs. Sooner than later your SDMs will be down to half and you still won't be touching my SCs because I will just keep dancing them out of your FP24 WBs until I have whittled them down to WB8.
I don't have to corner them all, just one at a time, since you seem to not be squadroning them, the dancing in and out is not much of a threat due to their weak WBs and BC against escorts.
The squadron with 2 goes in the center of the formation. By all means, attack it. That's why it's there, since the idea is that anything that comes in range at 30cm is in range of both larger squadrons on the flank. If you funnel thawks toward it, I get to fire lances at them as well.
Further, if I brace I lose some forward momentum. If you brace, you lose the ability to reload ord.
You think? You haven't even tried SM yet having just gotten your fleet. I win with SM. Difficult yes, but I win. Adding lances will just make things easier.
While I grant that I, personally, have not previously used SM, I have had a lot of fun with IN and chaos, and killed some space marines before. I liek to think that seeing how they died horribly at my hands, I might have some input.
The fact is you have those options to choose from. Not every IN fleet has ordnance. not every IN fleet has NCs. Not every IN fleet has everything. WBs are as good as the IN. WBs are not that good beyond 30 cm. You lose dice from the range because of the column shift then you lose dice further depending on the target profile. WBs work BEST in the 30 cm band. Which means SM WBs are working at their optimal conditions and can only get better by going under 15 cm which their ships can do with regularity.
I'm quite familiar with them trying to close like that. Except with Chaos. Then I usually don't let them. Or against IN. Then it's good time torps and lances for everybody.
The heck are you talking about? You're the one who started the hyperbole with 12 in guns on subs. The Graf Spee was basically a cruiser with 11 in guns. It's considered a pocket battleship though it is closer to an oversized cruiser or even battlecruiser than a true battleship at the time. That's what I meant about the SC being considered a "battlecruiser" since you were using real life examples. That's what the Deutschland's were. Similarly, the SC in the game has more weapons and defensive qualities than any light cruiser chassis has any right to have making them in effect oversized cruisers nearing battlecruiser status.
The reason why the Gothic can clean the SCs clock is because of the 4 lances per broadside but let's say we go 1:1 with the SC. What's the Gothic going to do against the THs? I would keep using the THs to crit a lot of the Gothic's systems then charge in with the SC preferably when one of its broadsides are out and attack on that angle. Once the BCs get hits in, more crits will happen. It's actually almost a fair fight. You just have to play SMARTLY and not rush the SC headlong into the welcoming arms of its broadside lances.
I'm familiar with the
Duetschland class, I was referring to the M class submarine the RN built as an example of just because a ship has weapon (whatever) doesn't mean that it automatically becomes whatever the weapon is more commonly mounted on.
As far as the Gothic V SC: AAF and ram it with the power ram. Depending on if you stop as you hit or pass her you'll either get a broadside angle or a shot with your torps if end the movement in base contact.
Really? We've already gone through so many things. The lances combine well with WBs. SMs like IN work best in groups. So WBs and BCs hitting against one target will then be further hurt by lances getting through it. The problem with BCs is that you need to have the right target profile to make max use out of it thereby making things harder for SM. Lances makes things easy. Point and shoot. Doesn't matter what the target's profile is. That's how it becomes a ship killer though not necessarily na super ship killer. The Dauntless is the closest example to the SC with lances you can get. We know how bad that momma can be so we know what we are talking about when people ask for lances on the SC which is a more survivable ship than the Dauntless will be.
You still haven't provided any reason why SM needs lances. That's what now? 6 or 7 times I asked? Still counting.
The first and foremost is their efficiency against escorts is going to be compromised by the new rules for aboats and the Wolfpack list being made official. Lances would go some distnce to off setting this.
Many people are complaining about it. While I have not playtested it yet, being busy with work, it's not final yet and can still be subject to revisions if the situation warrants. And one game does not a conclusion make. Try it out 5 or 10 times, then come back with your results. However, look at your results:
1. SO managed to cross the T. Quite doable but I wonder what the IN player was doing not presenting the Apocs broadside when the SO was in range.
2. Apoc failed BFI check. Now try that again with successful BFI.
3. Your got the Shield's Collapse crit which no doubt helped in the demise of the Apoc. Now try it without the Shields Collapse Crit.
The SO was not unhit, however it only took 4 damage leading up to this.
D'Art, even without the shields collapse crit, it would still have taken about eq to a str 6 lance hit. It would have been dead, just differing in it's degree of dead.
As far as the successful BFI: It would have taken half as many hits, leaving it only crippled and with only 3ish crits instead of five. It might do a little more damage to the SO, but I'd say that it's probably going to die in the next turn or so.
Which is why the ship is still in a draft. Provide your playtest result to Nate and it may yet be changed.
The SM stuff is stamped 'final'.
Being first on scene does not mean you attack any ship or fleet orbiting the planet just because you're SM. Play smart. Fight smart. If you're just one ship, you won't be able to beat a fleet easily. One on one, it IS possible even with BCs. Just hard.
You don't see the difference bet a torp required to breach the armor value vs a weapon that can hit a ship regardless of what armor it has on a 4+? Maybe that's the problem.
Against IN ships one hits on a +4 and one hits on a +5 on most facings. The str 2 lance would do on average one hit, the str 6 torp on average 2 (since thawks are fighters and can suppress turrets). So, again, how is the torp not an anti-ship weapon when the lance is?
Well, let's take your 480 pt example of 8 SDM vs 3 SC (2 THs, 2 shields, 160 pts). In this example you're clustering your SDMs to maximise massed turrets. It is quite possible for the SM player to annihilate this force without taking a single shot in return.
Step 1 - launch 2 x 3 THs and reload (optional)
Step 2 - set your THs and SCs 41cm away from oncoming SDMs, end turn
Step 3 - he moves forward 5-10cm, is out of range, your turn
Step 4 - AAF, contact 1st base, land on 2nd or 3rd base. Ram x 3. Board x 3 (+3 modifier). Mop up with THs
That's 8 dead SDM, with maybe 1 damage from the ram attempt. It is possible to lose the boarding action if you roll a 1 and he rolls a 5 or 6, but it's unlikely and he'll only have that 1 escort left out of 8. It's also possible that with 6 dice on the ram you won't roll a 6, so maybe he'll have 1 escort left from that. Not likely to have 2 left. Note, if you have even 1 extra escort (a Nova for example) to be able to place a single BM you'll likely get it into contact with all 3 enemy ships making it even less likely that one will survive the boarding attempt.
All this is without even firing a shot, lances or otherwise. So the SC is more than capable of holding its own against these terribly slow and ponderous vessels. Now, let's look at lances vs BCs. Undoubtedly the SDM will be pointed at the SCs. They are slow and lumbering and their lance is forward only. So the SC could move to within normal range, present broadsides and get 2 BC dice and 1 WB dice, so it is possible to win 1 on 1. This assumes BM interference. If they had an acute approach angle they could get this without having to turn, and so could be on LO. A lance equipped ship would get +1 WB dice. If the SC could get from being out of range to close range in 1 turn (which they certainly can) then there is no difference between the lances and BC at all (except that the BC get 4+ crits and 4+ hits on AC, which only comes into play against other defences).
When circling each other the SC will always find rear armour at close range, and this situation is the same as the normal range scenario above. That is to say BM interference will give 2 BC dice and 1WB dice, whereas lances would get +1WB dice. In return the SDM will be shooting at an abeam ship and have 4WB dice (needing 3 hits at least to do anything). All the while the SC has THs too.
So in some circumstances the lance variant gets 1 extra dice. This isn't a uniform increase and presupposes no support and doesn't come close to making up for the loss of firepower against static defences. SMs would not arm their ships so. The IN wouldn't allow them to arm their ships so. The SMs would not want to challenge the IN in this particular. Sure they're stubborn and like getting their own way, but they know how far to push it.
I actually considered ignoring you entirely, but:
Never minding that 'why on earth would I bunch them together rather then set them up to provide supporting fire if someone tries to close or get behind one or more squadrons':
2: How are you moving your SC's during the Ordinance phase? You would either have to not move your AC for both your and my ord phase, which means they will be out of range if you AAF, or you're moving with them infront of you, meaning they're going to be in range of my wbs.
4: the sheer number of things that can go wrong here...
In order of likelihood:
1)You fail to roll between 10 and 12 on 4d6 meaning you either stop short or overshoot on your ram attempt. Overshooting would be bad, stopping short would be much worse. Overshoot and I have to BFI one squadron, and have a 50/50 chance of losing one SDM. Fall short and you're closing, within 15 cm, and looking at a str 24 wb and str 3 lances. I'd brace if I were you at this point.
2)All of my squadrons are not actually exactly the same distance away from you.
3)I successfully BFI against you at one or more points in this plan.
