Space Marines - Redesign/Rules Development

[Zelnik]

I agree, Now bombardment cannons and heavy gunz are FAR more viable options

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Would the anti-lance faction please make up their minds what unbelievable fluff they're believing?  First it's impossible for them to kill a eldar craftworld with a whole chapter, but we're putting down a rebelling planet with one company.  

And again, what has that got to do with SCs getting lances? Again, the fear of the uprising planet (read the leaders of the uprising) is the SM getting groundside and hunting them down. You cannot easily kill the leaders of the uprising from space. You have to get groundside, look for the rot and tear it out.

If there is an enemy battlefleet upstairs supporting the uprising, what's one ship going to do? So now you believe that one ship supplied with lances will merrily dispatch said fleet when it couldn't do the same with the existing BC setup? Seriously?

Second: Dart, the point was that a single SC taking on the ships that it is supposed to be able to clear easily wouldn't.  And why in the name of god would you ever BFI SDMs against a SC?   That's like a SDM going BFI against a Nova.  It can't do more then your shields worth of damage under most circumstances.  Granted, if the SC is abeam and the SDMs are closing, you'll get enough firepower to maybe kill one, but probably not, as you'll be firing through a BM at an escort.  You could try for a left shift inside 15cm, but you'll probably get your teeth kicked in by that wb 24 if you aren't successful.

First you have your BCs which hit on a 4+ regardless of its armor and shields. 2 SCs give you 6 BCs. 3 SCs give you 9. You seriously wouldn't brace your SDM? Then you'd have the THs (4-6 at the existing setup) ripping out every system inside that ship. You still don't want to BFI?

Look right now, we're down to the question I have asked 3x now. Do the SM REALLY NEED Lances? You still haven't answered that.

[Vaaish]

It flatted an entire wing of the Imperial Palace, a building measured in kilometers.  Of the four-five shots fired, two missed, one by 900 km.  Uriel goes on to think about how a full bombardment, without the reduced payloads, would have flattened everything for 50km. 

my mistake, I'm a little disconnected from my materials at the moment.

[BaronIveagh]

First you have your BCs which hit on a 4+ regardless of its armor and shields. 2 SCs give you 6 BCs. 3 SCs give you 9. You seriously wouldn't brace your SDM? Then you'd have the THs (4-6 at the existing setup) ripping out every system inside that ship. You still don't want to BFI?

Look right now, we're down to the question I have asked 3x now. Do the SM REALLY NEED Lances? You still haven't answered that.

Again, D'Art, yes, when you have three times the points values of a ship, you probably will win.  And, why would you need a battlefleet?  System defenses are more then capable to tearing even three SCs apart.  

Let's add other defenses to the crop, since we're upping the points to 480.

1 Space Station

(ringed with)

Platforms: squadroned
2 lance platforms (
2 WB platforms
1 torp platform

(Guarded by)
3 SDMs (squadroned)


(Now I have ordinance and launchbays too.  Ho Ho ho.)

D'art, I'm going to assume that you squadroned the SC's, otherwise, I still wouldn't have to brace for impact.  However, even added together, their firepower is reduced to 4 abeam.  While now I would have to brace, you probably should be firing at the stations and batteries you will have to come in range of to engage them.  Since the stations fighters will probably reduce 6 thawks to 4, and you'll want to keep 1 of them on cap anyway against that str 6 torp hit, I'm still not too worried about the thawks.

And, further, last I checked, BCs do not ignore shields, only armor.

And again, what has that got to do with SCs getting lances? Again, the fear of the uprising planet (read the leaders of the uprising) is the SM getting groundside and hunting them down. You cannot easily kill the leaders of the uprising from space. You have to get groundside, look for the rot and tear it out.

If there is an enemy battlefleet upstairs supporting the uprising, what's one ship going to do? So now you believe that one ship supplied with lances will merrily dispatch said fleet when it couldn't do the same with the existing BC setup? Seriously?

Well, using the odds between one SC and 3 SDMs, yes, it would have marginally better odds.  With the new simultaneous fire rule, that will improve them against static targets, but it does little to help them against the SDM, which is the vessel they're SUPPOSED to be able to neutralize easily.  (Taking 1 cruiser per one monitor is not easily).

As far as that one goes, the simple and most expedient means is to shoot down the drop pods with ground fire.  (which has worked in fluff in the past)

If that is not available: position camouflaged artillery emplacements so that when the space marines attack your (hopefully) empty command post, which always seems to be the first target, you won't be there (though one should always leave behind enough troops to maintain the illusion), but the incoming fire of dozens of artillery batteries and mortar teams will be pre-ranged on that target.

For extra fun, rig the command post itself for remote detonation.  Once the second lowest level is penetrated, blow the reactor as the signal for all artillery to open fire.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Again, D'Art, yes, when you have three times the points values of a ship, you probably will win.  And, why would you need a battlefleet?  System defenses are more then capable to tearing even three SCs apart.  

Let's add other defenses to the crop, since we're upping the points to 480.

1 Space Station

(ringed with)

Platforms: squadroned
2 lance platforms (
2 WB platforms
1 torp platform

(Guarded by)
3 SDMs (squadroned)


(Now I have ordinance and launchbays too.  Ho Ho ho.)

D'art, I'm going to assume that you squadroned the SC's, otherwise, I still wouldn't have to brace for impact.  However, even added together, their firepower is reduced to 4 abeam.  While now I would have to brace, you probably should be firing at the stations and batteries you will have to come in range of to engage them.  Since the stations fighters will probably reduce 6 thawks to 4, and you'll want to keep 1 of them on cap anyway against that str 6 torp hit, I'm still not too worried about the thawks.

And, further, last I checked, BCs do not ignore shields, only armor.

Are you that bad a tactician that you would let your SCs engage all of those at one go? No wonder you want lances. Sorry but I would use my SCs and take out the more important threats one at a time. I would most likely go against the SDMs first. If they don't want to come out and fight that's fine. I send my SCs out behind the planet away from where the more heavily concentrated platforms are and start landing troops (assuming this is a Planetary Assault or Exterminatus) and take out the platform there.

System Defenses are dangerous. They are not as dangerous as mobile warships though. I don't even get what you mean by 4 Abeam since one always rolls against on the Defense column. So with 6 BCs, you are rolling 5 dice. With 9 BCs, you're rolling 8 dice. And you still won't brace your platforms?  

So let's say 1 SC going up against what? 5 Lance platforms for a worst case scenario. So I send my THs in first to try and mess up the Lance platforms. Take out the weapons (which can be done if they roll on the prow/port/starboard/dorsal weapons damage) of 2 or 3 lances platforms then I charge my SC in and then start clearing the platforms. I'm a bit unsure here since platforms don't have crit tables so I still have to check if they suffer like escorts when they get crit so I assume follow table for now. Regardless, you don't just rush headlong into them.

Well, using the odds between one SC and 3 SDMs, yes, it would have marginally better odds.  With the new simultaneous fire rule, that will improve them against static targets, but it does little to help them against the SDM, which is the vessel they're SUPPOSED to be able to neutralize easily.  (Taking 1 cruiser per one monitor is not easily).

Have you even TRIED it yet? 1 SC will go up only against 2 SDMs considering the points. I send my TH to handle one SDM and I attack the other with my SC. It's not complicated.  It's still a 1 hp Escort. Any AB rolling 4+ on it will still destroy it unless it braces. So what are you going to do? What are you even afraid of?

As far as that one goes, the simple and most expedient means is to shoot down the drop pods with ground fire.  (which has worked in fluff in the past)

If that is not available: position camouflaged artillery emplacements so that when the space marines attack your (hopefully) empty command post, which always seems to be the first target, you won't be there (though one should always leave behind enough troops to maintain the illusion), but the incoming fire of dozens of artillery batteries and mortar teams will be pre-ranged on that target.

For extra fun, rig the command post itself for remote detonation.  Once the second lowest level is penetrated, blow the reactor as the signal for all artillery to open fire.

And you think the SM that you highly regard would not have thought about this yet? that they just jump in without any rhyme or reason or plan on how to solve the problems above? And again, you think lances would solve all the problems above?  

[BaronIveagh]

Are you that bad a tactician that you would let your SCs engage all of those at one go? No wonder you want lances. Sorry but I would use my SCs and take out the more important threats one at a time. I would most likely go against the SDMs first. If they don't want to come out and fight that's fine. I send my SCs out behind the planet away from where the more heavily concentrated platforms are and start landing troops (assuming this is a Planetary Assault or Exterminatus) and take out the platform there. System Defenses are dangerous. They are not as dangerous as mobile warships though.

No, D'Art, I'm good enough to force my opponent to with torp volleys though.  Though if you want, we could do 480 points of SDMs.  That WOULD eat the SCs. 

Have you even TRIED it yet?

How well does str 2 do against 2 shields?  Since WB 4 is reduced to 1 and the BC is reduced to 1 unless they're closing.  While the SC is maneuverable enough to do it, a smart player will force you to fire at them abeam as much has possible, where they have the advantage.

And you think the SM that you highly regard would not have thought about this yet? that they just jump in without any rhyme or reason or plan on how to solve the problems above? And again, you think lances would solve all the problems above? 

While blasting the command bunker with a lance WOULD actually be the best way to avoid this, if you're just going to land troops and go after the leadership, then, YES, this is a good way to bag yourself a space marine company.  The only real trick of it is to give enough of an impression of resistance to sell the bait, and not do anything to give it away, like firing prematurely or leaving obvious demo charges in the upper levels of the base.  Most of the time a trap is successful if it doesn't LOOK like a trap.  (Have a double of the rebellious governor make a broadcast from the bunker, for example).

[Eldanesh]

No, D'Art, I'm good enough to force my opponent to with torp volleys though.  Though if you want, we could do 480 points of SDMs.  That WOULD eat the SCs. 

Sorry, this is an illogical argument in every aspect

1. From a "Fluff" point of view it it is useless as there are usually no "fair" matches: first principle of warefare: don't attack if you can't win. If the commander of an attacking strike cruiser (or a fleet of them)  has the impression that the given system has to tought orbital defences, he'll ask for help from the IN. Causa finita. SM aren't supposed to do the Job of the IN nor they are supposed to fight lagre scale Space battles. Everything SM ship should do is to deliver its "freight" of Marines - no need for lances at all

2. Gamewise (some) orbital/Planetary defences are superior to most ships in most fleets. Yes, 480 Points system defences eat their equivalent in strike Cruisers -but they'll eat up most other ships too.  But the answer is quite simple: you can't play a "fleet" of sytsem defences. they are strictly scenario-based.

General: no need for lances: as sig said, they have bombard cannons, which are technically (rulewise) a far more elegant solution than lances. An if there is one thing that the game does not need, then it is more lances. At all they are already far to common.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

No, D'Art, I'm good enough to force my opponent to with torp volleys though.  Though if you want, we could do 480 points of SDMs.  That WOULD eat the SCs.  

Really? How? I just send in my 9 THs to eat your 8 SDMs one at a time by rolling 3+ to kill them. When they get down to 4 or less SDMs, the SCs now charge in and assist with the eating. Really, it's obvious you don't know how to deal with SDMs using SCs.

How well does str 2 do against 2 shields?  Since WB 4 is reduced to 1 and the BC is reduced to 1 unless they're closing.  While the SC is maneuverable enough to do it, a smart player will force you to fire at them abeam as much has possible, where they have the advantage.

The SDMs maneuver like a pregnant pig on ice. Spd 10 and 45' turns! What are you on? The SMART SM player sends his THs against the SDMs and kill them one at a time. The SMART SM player will send his SCs to the rear of the SDMs. They're ESCORTS for heaven's sake with ONE (1) count em ONE (1) HP. What kind of super SDMs are you talking about anyway?

While blasting the command bunker with a lance WOULD actually be the best way to avoid this, if you're just going to land troops and go after the leadership, then, YES, this is a good way to bag yourself a space marine company.  The only real trick of it is to give enough of an impression of resistance to sell the bait, and not do anything to give it away, like firing prematurely or leaving obvious demo charges in the upper levels of the base.  Most of the time a trap is successful if it doesn't LOOK like a trap.  (Have a double of the rebellious governor make a broadcast from the bunker, for example).

You're missing the point. The SM have been fighting for almost 10,000 years. You think they wouldn't know how to deal with that problem by now or seen something similar at least once? Even then SM will have backup plans ready just in case things do go south. They still wouldn't need lances to deal with the problem you described.

[lastspartacus]

Look right now, we're down to the question I have asked 3x now. Do the SM REALLY NEED Lances? You still haven't answered that.

I believe it has not been answered, because the issue is not a question of need.

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Look right now, we're down to the question I have asked 3x now. Do the SM REALLY NEED Lances? You still haven't answered that.

I believe it has not been answered, because the issue is not a question of need.

Of course it's a question of need. SMs already have BCs in lieu of the lances. It is now a question of whether they need it in addition to the BCs. Sorry LS but that's all it boils down to now. The pro lance crowd must justify it.

[lastspartacus]

Are you talking a gameplay need or...what exactly?

[Admiral_d_Artagnan]

Gameplay as well as fluff.

[lastspartacus]

Marines don't need lances for gameplay purposes, no.  To me, this only makes it easier for them to have examples of them comfortably, as it fills no gameplay weakness.  All I myself am arguing is the possibility of examples of strike cruisers with lances in the 40k setting, and my suggestion is one free str3 BC l/r/f for str2 lance front on an SC, per 750 or 1k points.

[skatingtortoise]

surely the instances of SMs having lances on SCs are so few and far between, that if you are desperate for lances you can just house rule it? why the desperate need to have a rulebook tell you you can have lances? to justify your arguments thus far?

you should be identifying the need, then putting forward a solution. right now you have already decided on your solution and youre trying to justify it every which way you can, its backwards. if you can state a specific problem that the space marines have which can be solved better by a lance than anything else, then you have an argument. until then, youre trying to fix what aint broke.

[BaronIveagh]

Really? How? I just send in my 9 THs to eat your 8 SDMs one at a time by rolling 3+ to kill them. When they get down to 4 or less SDMs, the SCs now charge in and assist with the eating. Really, it's obvious you don't know how to deal with SDMs using SCs.

Um, D'Art, 3 SCs carry 6 Thawks, not 9 (last I downloaded the FAQ, anyway).  Second, if you're playing keep away, that just means that I can use WBs to kill three (or more) thawks as they come up, and turret massing will do the rest.  

The SDMs maneuver like a pregnant pig on ice. Spd 10 and 45' turns! What are you on? The SMART SM player sends his THs against the SDMs and kill them one at a time. The SMART SM player will send his SCs to the rear of the SDMs. They're ESCORTS for heaven's sake with ONE (1) count em ONE (1) HP. What kind of super SDMs are you talking about anyway?

The ones in the back of blue book.  Do the math: Str 24 wb against ord followed by 5 turrets (assuming that I can't fire lances at it).  I'm rolling 13 dice against them before they close.  

While they do plod along and turn like a pregnant sow, as people like to remind me, you only have a 6 x 4 area to maneuver in.  Eventually I will corner one SC against something and close.  SCs aren't necrons, you can't magic them out of the battlefield and win.

You're missing the point. The SM have been fighting for almost 10,000 years. You think they wouldn't know how to deal with that problem by now or seen something similar at least once? Even then SM will have backup plans ready just in case things do go south. They still wouldn't need lances to deal with the problem you described.

You cannot plan for a surprise.  You can only plan on being surprised.  It's kind of like a landmine.  Yeah, people have seen them for a long time, but you have to know it's there.  If you discover it the hard way, there is no PLAN that will save you.  You'll ether live by dumb luck or not.